bold plans, i tell you. careful look, don't get too excited because they set to be watered down. and i'm asking you when you think it comes to the majority of rights, where should they sit with the workers or the companies? you tell me. and also, a cross—party report has been published stating that asylum seekers should be given the right to work after six months and get this be granted greater access to public

services. do you agree with that also as well? what on earth is going on in ireland? do you think it feels like one rule for them and another for us? let me ask you this as well. does the uk need an iron derm similar to that of israel's? we're currently in talks with the eu about providing and creating exactly that. is it the right move or not? and another day and another attack at a school this time in sheffield, and this time a 17 year old boy arrested for attempted murder? please help me . what on earth is going . on? . what on earth is going. on? yes, indeed. lots to get stuck into with aaron bastani and peter hitchens tonight. but before we do that, let's cross live to rafe. tonight's latest news headlines . news headlines. >> thanks, michel. our top stories tonight. the 14 year old boy killed in a sword attack in north—east london yesterday has been named as daniel anderson.

the met police says a 36 year old man remains in custody on suspicion of the teenager's murder. daniel was a pupil at bancroft's. that's the same school in east london attended by grace o'malley kumar , who was by grace o'malley kumar, who was murdered in a knife attack in nottingham last summer. four other people were injured during yesterday's attack . police yesterday's attack. police believe a piece of glass may have been used as a weapon dunng have been used as a weapon during an incident at a school in sheffield. a 17 year old boy has been arrested for attempted murder after three people were hurt at the birley academy this morning. assistant chief constable dan thorp praised the actions of school staff in what he said would have been a frightening ordeal. >> the three victims of this incident, two adults and a child , suffered minor injuries and were checked over at the scene by colleagues from yorkshire ambulance service . the two ambulance service. the two adults both suffered minor injuries , one from a sharp injuries, one from a sharp object which is believed to be broken glass . the child was

broken glass. the child was assaulted and thankfully has no visible injuries. >> scotland's snp government has survived a confidence vote at the scottish parliament. the leader of scottish labour, anas sarwar, tabled the motion after a power sharing deal between the snp and the greens collapsed. the motion was defeated by 70 votes to 58. well. meanwhile, two msps thought to be considering running to replace scotland's first minister have held private talks. john swinney and kate forbes met at holyrood yesterday. both have received support from senior members of their party after humza yousaf announced that he was stepping down. the meeting has been described as informal, with both politicians still weighing up whether they should run . the whether they should run. the first migrants set to be deported to rwanda have been detained and they include both men and women . the home office men and women. the home office says a series of operations took place across the country this

week, with more due to be carried out. officials won't confirm how many people have been detained or where they were taken into custody. it comes ahead of the government's bid to get flights off the ground by july, after the safety of rwanda act became law last week . act became law last week. meanwhile, more than 1700 small boat migrants have crossed the engush boat migrants have crossed the english channel in just over a week, gb news can reveal. after several more boats were intercepted in uk waters today. a boat load of around 70 people was taken to dover harbour by lifeboat in the early hours of this morning. so far today, around 400 people have been taken to the border force migrant processing centre. official figures for yesterday revealed that 268 migrants arrived in the uk on five small boats . police have arrested boats. police have arrested three people during a pro—palestinian protest outside a government building in central london. hundreds of demonstrators held a rally outside the department for business and trade. organisers

say workers and trade unionists also held protests outside of bae systems sites to show solidarity with palestinian workers . in the us. violent workers. in the us. violent clashes have erupted on the campus of the university of california in los angeles between pro—palestinian protesters and a group of counter—demonstrators riot police had to break up crowds this morning. it comes hours after new york city police arrested approximately 300 pro—palestinian demonstrators, including occupying rather a building on columbia university campus in new york. speaking earlier, new york city mayor eric adams said the protest was not led by students , but those not led by students, but those who broke into the building did include students. >> it was led by individuals who are not affiliated with the university. they needed the school, needed the nypd assistance to clear hamilton hall and the encampments outside

. and we said from the beginning that students have a right to protest, and free speech is the cornerstone of our society. but as our major concern , we knew as our major concern, we knew and we saw that there were those who were never concerned about free speech. they were concerned about chaos . about chaos. >> and finally, vicars have occupied the labour party headquarters in london to protest against an oil field licence. five members of the christian climate action group have occupied the lobby of the building. they've been holding a church service to protest against labour's refusal to cancel the rosebank oil field licence . 20 other vicars were licence. 20 other vicars were protesting outside. police have responded to the scene for the latest stories , sign up to gb latest stories, sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen or go to gb news. carmelites now straight back to . michelle.

back to. michelle. >> thank you very much for that. i am michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside me , i've got my panel, alongside me, i've got my panel, the author and mail on sunday columnist peter hitchens and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. good evening, gentlemen, to both of you , good gentlemen, to both of you, good evening as well to leigh, you're on the website. you've said it's the best hour of the day. welcome, jubes. thank you very much. very flattered. we are, you know the drill. you can get in touch with us all the usual ways. you can email gbviews@gbnews.uk . com. you can gbviews@gbnews.uk. com. you can go as well to the website i've just been referencing and go gb news .com/ yourself. or of course you can tweet or x me however you want to talk to me tonight. you're very welcome to the conversation. indeed. it is of course may day, labour day, international workers day, whatever you want to call it. i thought it'd be a good day then to talk workers rights, because of course there's been a lot of focus on this when it comes to the labour party. they set out what they call the biggest reforms to workers rights, pretty much in a generation. got some bad news for you there.

they are set to be watered down. but fear not, because keir starmer has been speaking out about them. let's have a listen. >> it should be a given that whoever you are, whatever your circumstances, however you contribute, you are treated with dignity and respect at work and thatis dignity and respect at work and that is why we will end fire and rehire . make parental leave a rehire. make parental leave a day one right scrap zero hour contracts, strengthened statutory sick pay, boost collective bargaining and make work pay with a real living wage i >> -- >> yes, i hear the workers groan when i hear the business owners. i find this very interesting, peter, because keir starmer will talk about how he wants to be pro workers, but also pro business and what the labour stand for is a key question a lot of people have. so when it became all about this big new deal for working people, these big pioneering reforms, it's not going to be that anymore because

businesses now has had a say. >> it doesn't look as if it's good to be that way anymore. but of course, labour has for a long time had very little interest in the old working class movement from which it was born, and particularly it became very adept at raising money from businessmen and other sorts of contributors, which have made it much less dependent on the unions. i think it's been very successful in the past couple of years in doing so, which is presumably why it can now treat the unions like this. in any case, the unions as as defenders of workers rights are much, much weaker than they've ever been in modern history. weaker than they've ever been in modern history . and compared modern history. and compared with the way they were when i was a labour correspondent in the 1980s, they're fantastically quiescent and weak and unorganised, and so they aren't really much of a force in labour politics anymore. despite the belief of some people on the right that they are. the real problem of labour is not that they're pro union, but that they're pro union, but that they're pro union, but that they're pro euro communism and a whole raft of extremely radical policies, which are what they

really want to pursue. i got i had a slight i don't know what noise it was, but there was certainly a noise coming from my left hand side and bastani what was that? >> a slight chuckle, the whole euro communism thing. i think it appues euro communism thing. i think it applies to many of the people that came up through new labour john reed, peter mandelson, even tony blair himself. with this new cohort, i don't even think it's that deep. i don't think they've even thought about things 20 years ago when they were students, let alone today, whereas the blairite contingent that came to run new labour in the 1990s and the 2000, they'd been on this intellectual journey, many of them from euro communism, as peter puts it, regarding the particulars of this, this news we've heard for three years about a new deal for work, it sounds very exciting. the new deal, in terms of details, has been reduced to a review. yes, a promise to consult and a right to switch off, which isn't a right. i mean, it's just pure, vague , mean, it's just pure, vague, vacuous new labour, hot air rhubarb .

rhubarb. >> it's just it's just complete rhubarb, pure pie. he talks about. >> you can see it if you if you were offered that in any kind of negotiation, you'd know you were being palmed off with nothing. >> it's over. you're done. >> so i think we have to understand that the a lot of people on the political right in this country, particularly in the media, still believe that labour are terribly in the pockets of the unions and therefore they're in favour of workers rights. i just think this is fanciful. they are, however, still very much on the left. you say that the euro communist era, the marxism today people are largely gone. i suppose that's true, that it seems to me peter mandelson is still quite prominent in labour politics, but keir starmer himself is definitely a man of the of what we could call a radical left. not necessarily the workers left. and he his origins are in a strain of trotskyism known as pabloism, which is more accurately described now as red green politics. and it's mostly about sexual politics, and it's about green policies such as net zero. that's where they're really

concentrating an awful lot of labour's money is coming from green contributors as well, rather than from union ones. and that's another thing to watch out for in what they actually do. >> well, let's think about that because you're one of the concerns that people had is that there was a 16 page green paper that set out a lot of this stuff, some of which aaron has just alluded to, but it was around the lines of basically all workers would get all of these rights pretty much from day one. they'd get rid of zero hour contracts, they'd stop things like fire and rehire. there was like there was so many rights. but the key thing that many businesses pushed back on was not just this whole kind of, you know , the fascination with you know, the fascination with all these rights and all of this extra red tape and all the rest of it. it was a key thing that they said that within the first hundred days of office, they would legislate for all of this stuff. so of course, that spooked business. and it's all well and good writing. 16 page green papers , because you want green papers, because you want these workers to vote for you. and lots of you know who

wouldn't want decent rights for workers. that's great, but there's no point having workers rights if you haven't got a job. and if you if you're not able to expand your organisation to create new employment or indeed to afford the employees that you've got, then the jobs are not going to be there. so you have to keep business on side as well. >> there's so much discussed there . partly, i agree, you there. partly, i agree, you can't destroy business. you know, destroying a business, dissolving a business, making it insolvent. it's not going to help the employees of that business. i agree with you there. ironically on fire and rehire, labour used fire and rehire, labour used fire and rehire against its own staff members. i mean, i know there are people on gb news very happy to attack the labour party. i'm here to tell you it's worse than you think. you know, they use the exact legislation that they target against their own staff. and in terms of the business interest, you know what i find fascinating about all of this, michel, is you've been in business. there are people on this channel, other channels, too , who've been in business. too, who've been in business. i don't agree with them on everything, but they have credibility, authority on that. on that side of things, what we

call business in this country generally just means the cbi. and by the way, the people in the cbi actually have worked in business. they're all ngo people. >> well, the cbi is a bit of a cloud hanging over its, reputation historically, isn't it? >> but historically, the institute of directors similar the big supermarkets , you know. the big supermarkets, you know. so i want to hear from medium small businesses across this country on the high street. what do they need? what do they want? because the left doesn't talk to those people. yeah, but it talks to ngos in london. >> those businesses are small businesses. yeah i agree yes. it's great. >> it doesn't mean those people though. it means it means these ngos in london were actually none of the people have started a business. yeah. bizarre. >> yeah. but these a lot of these workers rights will affect those smaller organisations way more than the bigger organisations because, you know , organisations because, you know, maybe i'll ask you at home, i don't know, have you ever set up a business and then you're sitting there thinking, right, shall i expand from just me and my bedroom or my garage or whatever? shall i take my first, member of staff on? shall i expand from 2 to 3, etc? these

rights will really, really pinch you. i'm not saying workers shouldn't have. right. of course they would. >> do. but as we've just discussed, they're not going to because the labour party isn't going to implement, but they'll have to do something. >> peter. >> peter. >> well, they don't they what they did was they was they put out a green paper which was, which was, which was rhubarb saying these are the things we might do. and now is the election and actual government approaches. they're saying, no, actually, you won't do those after all. >> well, they're going to reissue. they're going to have a renewed new deal that they're going to be reissuing in a few weeks. >> it will be it will be full of lettuce and, and rhubarb and other reviews and consultations. the real thing this is this is what this, this is what parties do as they approach power. they pull away from the promises that they made when they were campaigning. they people say that the people they campaign in poetry and govern in prose, actually, they they they campaign in untruths and they govern more or less truthfully. they're not going to do this. so all these small businesses, you want to get to ring you up don't have to worry because it isn't going to happen.

>> well, what do you think? do you do you worry? i don't know, do you sit there and you think peter's absolutely right or i don't need to worry my little head because all of these regulations will never happen. >> other things to worry about. i'm not saying you don't need to worry about about keir starmer's government. it's going to be awful. but this particular aspect of it, they'll put you out of business through net zero, not through pandering to the trade unions. i have to put you out of business. they just do it in a different way. >> i had dinner on saturday and i won't name them. they may be watching at least one of them. people will have heard of them. they're very successful businessmen, very successful. and the conversation that they were having was, i'm already considering emigrating on the back of being worried about whether or not a labour government get in, and they meant it. they weren't just being flippant. they weren't just kind of saying whatever . just kind of saying whatever. and i was trying to understand, well, what is it? which policy in particular would make you fear a labour government? i'm not sure i actually got to the bottom of it, but there was

this. yeah, there was a sentiment that it was anti—business. >> look, there's a fascinating story which has recently emerged. and it's it came out a couple of weeks ago. alex brummer, one of my colleagues at the daily mail, works on the guardian in 1997. and he discovered that gordon brown was planning this huge raid on private pension schemes, the thing which would basically destroy private pensions in this country so the government could grab all the money. and he he he tried to run it in the guardian and the guardian came under immense pressure from gordon brown to be silent about it. and the story was killed. so one of the story was killed. so one of the most important single policies of new labour was known to journalists in 1997 and sat upon, because they had pressure put on them by by what looked like the next government. do you think this isn't going on now? there are all kinds of other things happening now which labour intends to do, particularly to do with taxation and milking the middle class, because they have huge commitments which they cannot conceivably meet without raising more money than they're mentioning . do you think these mentioning. do you think these things are not happening? do you

think they're not being suppressed by labour friendly media? because i promise you that they are. and that is what people really need to worry about, about about a starmer government. it's that it's what it will do. cannot actually be stated. but the sums don't add up and it will have to do things which will be immensely damaging. >> what they would say, what they would say, obviously, if they would say, obviously, if they were here, they would say that they are going to do, you know, the right thing for the country. they are going to be the party of business, of the workers, etc. did i just hear from keir starmer or not? so have i just played that clip you did? >> i'll just quickly say as well though, look, the country is running £100 billion deficit today. already today we don't need to talk about the labour's sums not adding up. we've got 2.5% of gdp going on the military. we've got cuts to national insurance. we're running £100 billion deficit now . and i just think somehow this has become completely invisible in the national conversation. we just forgotten about it. no it's terrible. it was centre stage for five years and now nobody cares. >> it's terrible. aaron. but the problem is the terrible can become worse.

>> let me ask you this under starmer government, i promise you that it will because they they have promises to keep and they have promises to keep and they can't afford to keep them without raiding. >> in some ways, the pockets of those people who still have any money. >> so obviously there's no want from a starmer government here, but they would push back against that passionately and say that they are absolutely the party. to help sort out the mess of this country. >> i let you into a very small secret. >> if it's a small one. yeah. okay >> the question political parties lie directly during the 1997 election, the labour party put out a broadcast saying that the tories would abolish the state pension , that she said state pension, that she said that it was a direct, absolute lie. they've never been punished for it. there has never been any trouble about it. it's a flat like and i can show you the party political broadcast in which it was said, well, you can show me in the break. >> let me ask you this for now, in the absence of people believing that the labour party are the ones for the workers up p0p- are the ones for the workers up pop. george galloway, yesterday, with the expansion and the unveiling of his candidates, the workers party of britain, apparently they're going to support and be the party of the

working class and the workers. do you, endorse that, no . george do you, endorse that, no. george galloway is actually a anything else? mainly concerned with foreign policy? he doesn't, i don't think, really have any developed idea about domestic policy, not least because he knows he isn't going to have any chance of implementing it. and let's face it, george knows that he's likely, even if he is the only mp for his party after the election, he'll be lucky . he may election, he'll be lucky. he may well not be an mp after the election either . well not be an mp after the election either. he's not going to be making any legislative action. so he's basically sending out foreign policy slogans rather than coming up with very, very quickly. >> your answer on that, aaron. yeah. >> mr galloway is primarily interested in foreign policy. you know, we need to think on both the left and the right and the centre about how to grow the uk economy. and i think the left needs to think very hard about that. and it's not it's not easy to answer, but i think frankly the tories don't have any answers either. >> well have you got answers. are you sitting at home screaming at your television set or your radio saying they need to do this, this and this? if

you've got the answers, get in touch. i'd be absolutely fascinated, to hear what on earth you make of what's going on. there's so much more that i want to talk to you about tonight, asylum seekers. do you think they should get the right to work after being in the uk for six months and have greater access to social schemes? i don't know whether that's welfare or beyond. that's one proposal in a report out this week. do you agree with it or

not? hi there. i'm michelle dewberry, and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. alongside with the author and mail on sunday columnist peter hitchens. and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani. there's lots of love and appreciation coming through , on the socials for you through, on the socials for you guys tonight. but there's also a very confusing comment. liam says, oh, look, it's the big cuddly teddy bear on your show tonight. but liam, you didn't say who you meant . so now, say who you meant. so now, instead of thinking about the next topic, which is asylum seekers, i'm sitting here pondenng seekers, i'm sitting here pondering who on earth which of

the two is the big cuddly teddy bear? you guys can have a guess at home and liam, you can tell me the right answer if you don't mind. >> we want to know. >> we want to know. >> we want to know. >> we do want to know, that i won't sleep tonight without knowing that answer, archie , on knowing that answer, archie, on that previous topic says labour, are basically in favour of the unions. it will go one way. it will be strike, strike, strike, and therefore. and therefore. well, there you go. aaron doesn't agree with that. john says, the party where nobody understands what they stand for. the party that goes back and forwards on decisions, can't answer a straight question and have no manifesto. god help us. he says. to be honest though, john, you could use a lot of that description to describe many politicians and parties in this country. not just perhaps the labour one. but anyway, let's talk asylum seekers because a cross—party reports has been published and basically, among other recommendations, it says that asylum seekers should be given the right to work after six months and get greater access to pubuc months and get greater access to public services. what do you think to that at home? tell me

your thoughts. but aaron bastani, what do you think to it? >> i disagree with this, and so much as i don't think it should be six months, i think it should be six months, i think it should be sooner. oh yes, i, i think they should have access to obviously the nhs, but things like jobseeker's allowance or disability benefit, i obviously don't agree with that. i think it would be very strange for somebody to travel by foot from iranian kurdistan all the way to england and somehow say they're not fit to work . so i england and somehow say they're not fit to work. so i think england and somehow say they're not fit to work . so i think if, not fit to work. so i think if, for instance, you have somebody who's a qualified car mechanic, yeah, they're very good at that and they're saying, i'm willing to do that and they're going to be a net contributor to the exchequer. i have no problem with it because of this one reason. we want to create as many incentives as possible for people to stay inside the system. you were speaking on gb news yesterday to victoria atkins, not you, a colleague of yours, about this whole rwanda setup. what we have allowed is 60% of the people who would be going to rwanda have basically gone into the grey economy. and one of the ways you can reduce thatis one of the ways you can reduce that is by saying, well, look, you can work while your

application is being processed and those people are much less likely to do a runner. now, i appreciate many people watching this will say no, we want them all to go blah , blah, blah. the all to go blah, blah, blah. the point is, 40,000 people came here last year. you want as few of those as possible to go into the grey economy. i think letting them work is probably part of that solution. i have a very strong response to that. >> but let me hear from peter first. well, in a way i don't much care because it doesn't. >> it's all it's all fiddling around in tiny ways with the gigantic mess. the problem with it for me is this if you are an asylum seeker, what you're doing is you're fleeing from persecution or danger of some kind, and if that's the way you choose to come into this country, then what you're saying is you're so desperate to get out of where you've come from that you will go practically anywhere to get out of it, and therefore you can't really pick and choose your conditions. if they'd come as migrants applying legally to enter the country on work visas, then they can work. i completely accept that this is wholly broken down, that the whole the whole system of asylum

has been so totally abused over so many decades that it's no longer true, but it just seems to me that this it has to be mentioned from time to time that what we are actually dealing with here is illegal immigration, not people genuinely in search of asylum . genuinely in search of asylum. almost every single one of the people who come here comes here claiming asylum has come from france. now i accept that the quality of the coffee has declined in france recently, and there are 1 or 2 other things wrong with it. i don't actually much like the tgvs, but it's not a dangerous country. >> it certainly is not. it's not a dangerous country. >> there isn't any oppression there. there isn't any persecution there. so they can't be coming here as asylum seekers. they have to be coming here. so can we in our public discourse, just stop using this expression. it simply is. >> what would you call them instead? >> then they call them illegal entrants. that's what they are. they've come here illegally across the channel without going through passport control, to leave france or to enter this country. they've come here and they've come here claiming to be

something which they plainly axiomatically are not, because unless people are going to come to me and say france is an unsafe country, you cannot say that these people are seeking asylum. how do you do it? how can you do it? and whenever i say this in any kind of public forum, whether people in favour of unlimited immigration present, they fall silent because they cannot think of any response to this. so be fascinated to know if there's anybody who can tell me why it is that we have to carry on pretending that these people are asylum seekers when they aren't. >> do you have an answer to that? >> yeah, well, there was something called the dublin arrangement, which pertains to the european union. so of course many people coming into europe are coming via greece. they're coming via specific states. now, using the logic that peter's just said there, it's very logical. presumably presumably you think all those people should just stay in greece now , should just stay in greece now, the greeks, of course, wouldn't particularly like that. or greece and italy actually is the main point of entry for many of them, which is an argument. >> can i just please you can't. you've said presumably that's what i think. that's not what i think, what i say.

>> so the point is most of them come through. it's unfair on italy and greece if the people coming to those are the first safe countries they're entering in many cases for those countries, therefore, to have millions upon millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of people. >> deeply unfair. but can i tell you i would say, let's have a coordinated european response on this, which is not what we have, by the way, at the moment. but we had a coordinated western, i won't say response action. and the two principal reasons, three, actually, why this is going on is, number one, that britain and america invaded iraq, smashed, smashed up the middle east and turned it into a cauldron of misery and created one of the biggest waves of afghanistan. the same, biggest waves of migrants in the history of the modern world. and then david cameron went and destroyed the government in libya with no idea how to replace it and created a second wave. and then the americans went in indirectly, but they did into syria and did the same thing again. and the source of all this fundamentally is foolish, illiterate, western meddling in

in parts of the world we didn't understand, which has caused this great wave of migrants trying to better themselves completely agree, that is. and so i wouldn't it's not it's not good for greece. once people have arrived, no doubt some sort of measures need to be taken to make sure that people are settled, but they shouldn't be on their way in the first place. and they they the reason for this vast movement of people is mistaken warlike policies by governments which should have known better, which they continue to pursue. and of course, the next stage has been refugees from ukraine, i want to pick back up on what you said at the start because i thought it was absurd, when you say i completely disagree with you, when you say, oh, you know, i don't think it should be six months, it should be sooner. and then you say, obviously they should have access to the nhs and so on and so forth. >> well, health care, you wouldn't want somebody like dying because of a workplace injury and then go that's fine, your arm's fallen off. >> well, the one i have a workplace injury, if they're not

able to work, would they, but my point is they already have that, though, by the way. they already have access to nhs and so they should they have to have it. >> but you're deny health care to people? no, i don't think our nhs should be an international health service that anyone can just illegally enter the country, rock up with whatever ailment and use the nhs. but let me ask you this, if you live, if you get your wish granted so people can work pretty much from day one, it's not my wish. >> i agree with peter. none of those people should be here. it's because of primarily failed western foreign policy. and by the way, they want to turn iran into another failed state. that's another 100 million people coming to europe. >> you specifically said that you think that they should be able to work sooner, have access to this, that and the other. >> so if you fix the mess we have, that's not my that's not my wish. that's not my dream. >> i'm saying that would make more people make that crossing or less. great question. >> that's a great question. so we have to figure out a way to create sufficient incentives for people not to go into the grey economy, which is what's happening. right? which is what's happening without creating incentives for more people to come. that's that's a very important point. you're making what we have, what's the answer to it? >> because i think the answer to my question is it will incentivise more people. so therefore you'd have a higher

number. >> i think what i think, what you have to have is you have that right to work. they're paying that right to work. they're paying into the exchequer and you have a quick, efficient system of dealing with people, whether they can stay or leave, if they if they have six months period. and you know exactly where they are and you remove them if they don't meet certain requirements to stay. i think that's a perfectly legitimate, sensible system. we don't have that whatever way you you concede it would increase those numbers i have. absolutely. look, look, i think it's common sense . sense. >> i don't have statistical data. no no no no no no no no. >> look, here's the thing . we >> look, here's the thing. we can have this conversation about incentives and push and pull. if we go into iran and there's a war between israel and iran, and we create a failed state in iran with 100 million, 90 million people there, it doesn't matter. we will have tens of millions of people coming to europe, whether you're right or whether i'm right. so the point here is that failed foreign policy has created millions upon millions of people coming to europe, pushed by the us we agree with that. >> we all agree with that. >> we all agree with that. >> and i don't, you see, because the thing is that these wars happen, and each time they happen, and each time they happen, they begin generally with widespread public support. and people say, oh, yes, we have to go and deal with with the fascist saddam. we have to go and take out the taliban in

afghanistan or whatever the pretext is, and off our armed forces go and chew up whatever country it is. and then later on, this thing happens. i don't think most people make the connection between these foreign policy disasters and the gigantic wave of migration, both from africa, north africa, particularly , but from from particularly, but from from sub—saharan africa increasingly as well from africa and from the middle east, which is now heading our way because people want to better themselves. they can't live as they. you look at what it was like living in, say, latakia in syria before the before the western powers destabilised that country. people lived perfectly prosperous, reasonably stable lives , and then suddenly their lives, and then suddenly their homes were destroyed and their country became a chaos. so they wanted to get out of that. and then having having done that, they began to think, well, maybe we can better ourselves. and some went further. of course, vast majority of people from these destroyed and chewed up countries don't go very far. they can't get very far . they go they can't get very far. they go to the neighbouring country or they go to a different part of

their own country. but there will be significant numbers who come across. and david cameron's contribution to all this in destroying the libyan government is huge, because it was it was gaddafi who actually controlled the southern shore of the mediterranean and prevented that from being a road for illegal migration. these things are all grave mistakes. and i think when we discuss this , instead of we discuss this, instead of saying, let's send people to rwanda or let's, let's change the way that so—called asylum seekers are given their welfare, we narrow the thing down to the point where we don't understand anything. we have to realise that these foreign adventures , that these foreign adventures, which the press and the tv and many people are so keen about, have consequences. they do indeed. they're not just things you see on the television where an aeroplane shoots a rocket. it goes bang . it's something which goes bang. it's something which will reverberate in your society and maybe in your street for 20 or 25 years. >> indeed. and i'll come to on it in the after the break, i'm going to come on to talking about things like iron domes. but i saw an interview this morning and i will confess, it did make me cry, it was the father of that little girl, the seven year old girl that died ,

seven year old girl that died, trying to cross the channel last week and massive, huge debate sprung up saying that the father should never have put this girl into that dinghy in the first place, and therefore he was somehow responsible, and i initially did indeed share that thought, but when i listened to that interview, it really broke my heart because he was this fellow from iraq, he was living in different places in europe. he had asylum, refused, anyway, long story short, he said that he tried his very best to bring his children to the uk for a better life. that's what he wanted. his little girl to be able to go to school and all the rest of it, anyway, at the very sad end of that story was that she got trampled on. that's how she got trampled on. that's how she died. she got trampled on in that dinghy. and it really upset me because as a parent, you know, you look, ask yourself the honest truth. would you do anything possible to try and give your child the very best in life? because the hand on heart, i definitely would . i definitely would. >> and that's including putting your child on on a journey which is known by everybody to be fantastic. >> another crime that tony blair is responsible for. >> well, you know, fantastically

dangerous journey. one of the things that's upset me as well about that story is what kind of guy tramples on a child in a dinghy ? well, those people are dinghy? well, those people are probably end up in this country. you give me all your thoughts on all of that after the break. do you think the uk needs an iron derm similar to the kind that they have over israel? that's conversations taking place as we speak. your thoughts

? hi there. michelle dewberry with you until 7:00 tonight. the author of mail on sunday. columnist peter hitchens. and the co—founder of novara media, aaron bastani , alongside me. aaron bastani, alongside me. we've just had an interesting chatin we've just had an interesting chat in the break about that comment that i made just before the break, when i was saying it really did upset me to hear the story about that little girl that was trampled on, in the channel that was trampled on, in the channel, her dad saying that he was just trying to give them a better life. you had an

interesting reaction to me in the break, peter. tell the viewers, well, i think there's grave danger of emotional izing this to the point where you stop thinking about it. >> of course, anybody can sympathise . and i think any sympathise. and i think any person who's who thinks about it must sympathise with anybody else who seeks a better life . i else who seeks a better life. i don't blame people for doing it, but there are limits on what you can do to seek a better life, and there are limits on the risks that people can take. and i think that the crossing of the channelis i think that the crossing of the channel is known to be an immensely dangerous journey, and that if you say that you i'm not going to get involved in in criticising individual who's lost a child. but if you say that your your priority is your absolute priority is the well—being of your child , then well—being of your child, then it seems to me you must at least think twice about about placing that child on a dinghy crossing the english channel. >> i hear you, i hear you, aaron, your thoughts so , i mean, aaron, your thoughts so, i mean, l, aaron, your thoughts so, i mean, i, i like to sort of think about things taking a big step back. >> if you look at, for instance,

afghan refugees, how do we have fewer afghans come to britain, come to europe? why aren't we working, for instance, with iran, which will by the way, already has many, many afghans living there. they speak a similar language , the same similar language, the same language, some of them very easy to integrate. surely we could say as european countries, we will change the sanctions regime on tehran. we'll reduce that in exchange for a program where many of the afghans coming to europe actually stay in iran. we might even create some sort of facility there where if they want to apply to uk, they're more than welcome to try. but in iran, that's the sort of sensible thing we could be doing. instead, our allegedly smart people are running this country who take their orders. let's be honest from washington. want to actually destabilise iran and want tens of millions of iranians to come to europe to. it's like they're trying to create as many refugees as humanly possible, rather than saying our priority should be stability in our near abroad and displacing as few people as possible. sometimes i think they're trying to actually displace as many people as possible. >> i could weep sometimes at the

policy of the major western nafions policy of the major western nations towards iran, i spent some time around a few years ago, and it's quite obvious that the regime is an appalling thing. the. but the other thing, which is quite obvious, is that that regime is kept in office largely by the hostility of the west , which largely by the hostility of the west, which sustains it. and they, they, they long for that hostility in my, my, my, my good friend jason rezaian, who was my guide in iran and who was shortly after i left , arrested shortly after i left, arrested on totally false charges of espionage, was and treated filthily for some years , was filthily for some years, was treated in that way because he was trying to explain to americans what iran was really like. americans what iran was really uke.the americans what iran was really like. the iranian authorities did not want people to know, just for instance, how pro—western most iranians are, what a potentially open country in front of the west. they want this confrontation. yes and it's it astounds me. the also having

having made such a tremendous mess of afghanistan . we now we mess of afghanistan. we now we now make it almost impossible for it to be reconstructed by by blocking aid and similarly, the intervention in syria, whatever you think of the regime in syria, millions of people were rendered homeless, the ones who weren't turned into corpses by the long, long western intervention to try to overthrow assad. and now it's almost impossible for syria to get the aid it needs to reconstruct . so aid it needs to reconstruct. so you can you can hardly be surprised if people want to get up and leave. and also, you can't be surprised that the whole area remains in tension. i just look at the people who make foreign policy , particularly in foreign policy, particularly in washington dc at the moment. what are their aims ? they don't what are their aims? they don't seem to me to be doing the united states much good. and as for the rest of the world, not at all. >> there you go. what do you makes of it all? i mean, that father he put he said. anyway, he put his daughter into that. but because he said he thought even if there was just a 1% chance that they would get asylum, he wanted to try and make that his daughter and his

life, his family's lives better. i would say they should never be a chance that if you cross that way in the channel in a dinghy, there should be a 0% chance that you would either make it into british water and or even be assessed for asylum if you did. i personally think very sadly and very reluctant that it has become time to explore a turn back solution . i know that will back solution. i know that will upset many of you. you'll disagree with me and that's absolutely fine. tell me your thoughts on it all after the break. let's talk about this iron dome then, shall we? do we need one in this country or

not? hello there. i'm michelle dewberry till seven. peter hitchens and aaron bastani remain alongside me. alex has just got in touch with you. were saying? what a load of biased nonsense. who on earth can sit on your panel and say that labour would be worse than the

tories? have people not been having their eyes open for the last 14 years? he pretty much says there you go. let's talk, though, shall we, about the iron dome, of course , we'll be dome, of course, we'll be familiar with that, in israel. but now our defence secretary is apparently being in conversation with the eu about whether or not we should join forces to have a new so—called iron dome, type set up over europe. let's cut to the chase, aaron, do you think we need this? >> no, no, it sounds like it's more money for the military industrial complex, britain already has nuclear weapons. it already has nuclear weapons. it already has nuclear weapons. it already has intercontinental ballistic missiles. it has nuclear submarines. france and a similar situation, i would say that we shouldn't be so dependent upon the united states. trident missiles are made and serviced in the us. i think we should be entirely having that supply chain in the uk, and i do not think this is a wise thing. there clearly needs to be european cooperation , but to be european cooperation, but of this nature and scale, no . of this nature and scale, no. and i actually think it would put the frighteners up the russians in a bad way , i don't

russians in a bad way, i don't really see any sense for it . really see any sense for it. nobody's attacked europe using ballistic missiles in terms of western europe since adolf hitler. so no, i, i think this is about defence contracts , is about defence contracts, money and politicians like grant shapps who fundamentally are very inconsequential, irrelevant people trying to create a legacy for themselves and make themselves sound important, one of my viewers, jen peter, says we absolutely need this iron dome. we need it asap. politicians should should stop their hand—wringing and their waffling and get it done. she says. putin is far too close to us for comfort . us for comfort. >> well, i don't think that there's a particularly imminent dangen there's a particularly imminent danger, but if you want to have national defence, it should be national. it's particularly in defence of this guy. and imagine if the whole of europe dominated , as it would be by the european union, decided to have its own iron dome system. then how would they decide where the where the missiles were and the shield was placed ? which cities and areas

placed? which cities and areas would get priority? which would have the most reserves of missiles for a heavy attack , missiles for a heavy attack, which would be most heavily protected by the necessary radars to keep it in operation . radars to keep it in operation. and there would be quarrels among the european union countries over which had priority. so if we were in some general european defence system, then who knows how much? since we are a small island at the far north—west of europe, furthest away from what i imagine is presumed to be the enemy, we would we would not necessarily come out on top in any of these allocations. if we want to defend ourselves against, against missiles with the missile shield, i'm not sure it's practicable. then we should do our own and not not, not rely on some much larger and probably unfinishable and system. i just can't see how a european system could even agree on who to defend and when. and i think it would be unlikely to defend us very well. i aaron, by the way , very well. i aaron, by the way, you have a wonderful faith in our supposed independent deterrent . it's unusable deterrent. it's unusable trident. it's completely misfired again a second time,

didn't it? >> on the last test. >> on the last test. >> it's unusable. recent events between israel and iran demonstrate that, in fact, even retaliation in conventional terms is extremely dangerous. and the whole of the world had to put enormous pressure on israel not to retaliate against iran's retaliation to israel's daft attack on the iranian diplomatic premises in damascus , diplomatic premises in damascus, which the americans, i think, are quietly furious about . are quietly furious about. retaliation can lead on to all kinds of things. once you use nuclear missiles, then you have lost the war and the whole point has gone anyway. i would i would favour a much smaller british nuclear deterrent, much cheaper. after all, israel has a much cheaper one than ours, and we could have much more effective conventional defences, which is what in fact we really need. >> matthew says. i can't believe you're asking this question about nylanderm michel, because surely it's a different question . why haven't we got one already? he says, you know, oh, pizzas, you have to close them

close the national health service down to pay for it mainly. >> well, like in save him, rescue him, respond . rescue him, respond. >> so iran launched. >> so iran launched. >> need a pat on the back. >> need a pat on the back. >> no thank you. no, i just astonished did anyone. these things cost immense . things cost immense. >> yeah well it nearly killed him. >> israel gets given an enormous amounts of. yeah. >> iran sent these 300 ballistic missiles, scud missiles, drones, etc, shooting those down cost israel about $1 billion. and israel about $1 billion. and israel is a tiny country, so i don't know what people think it would cost to build. europe's really big. it just seems like a very this isn't a problem. >> well, let's put it on the screen. just show people what the grey shaded area, by the way, is where the so—called sky shield would cover. so carry on. >> yeah. no. go all the way down to malta as well. just off the coast of north africa. so look, this isn't a problem . so i don't this isn't a problem. so i don't understand why all of a sudden this is a non—problem. we're saying we would have to spend. i presume this would cost tens of trillions of dollars to build. i mean, this is not. >> what price do you put on safety, aaron. >> but we're not. but nobody's launching missiles against us currently . we're not about if

currently. we're not about if they do, we're a nuclear power . they do, we're a nuclear power. look, if somebody says we need to invest in britain's armed forces because of threats in, in, in the world, okay. that is a very different argument to saying british taxpayers should pay saying british taxpayers should pay for the security of slovakia. i don't i don't . slovakia. i don't i don't. i don't even know what this means. i think maybe i'm living in an alternative reality, but i it's just this is pure politics in this country. in 2024, we create multi—trillion pound solutions to non—existent problems. >> would you be happy? if you're in favour of this? i can tell you now, most of you getting in touch with me are saying that you are in favour of it. so let me ask you this. would you be willing to pay more for it then, if someone turned around and said, you know what, i'm going to increase your taxes. would you still be in favour for it, or would that be making you cough on your water a la peter hitchens? by the way, a very disappointed because i never got to the bottom of who the big cuddly teddy bear was. >> oh, can't we can't we get this information yet? >> no, i know what's going on. i was desperately hoping that someone was going to send it to me, but he hasn't replied. i

don't know, i've embarrassed. maybe i've embarrassed him. maybe i've embarrassed him. maybe it was a private thoughts when he referred to one of you as a large cuddly bear , and as a large cuddly bear, and maybe he felt slightly embarrassed that i'd announced it to the nation . anyway, i'll it to the nation. anyway, i'll take a guess. i think he was talking about peter hitchens , talking about peter hitchens, aaron. peter, thank you very much for your company. i'll leave these two to battle out. who wants to be the teddy bear? but for now, thank you very much. don't go anywhere, though. farage is up next. nanites >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar . sponsors of weather on . solar. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hi, there. welcome to the latest weather update from the met office for gb news. >> heavy rain overnight in the south, continuing into much of thursday. risk of thunderstorms in places, but it will be much dner in places, but it will be much drier further north. we've got an area of low pressure across the continent that's going to push some humid and warm air into much of the uk overnight, but on the boundary between that and the cooler air out in the

atlantic, we've got this reactivation of a frontal zone bringing some heavy rain to northern ireland, wales and then increasingly southern england. the persistent wet weather will affect south wales and the southwest of england by dawn, but thundery showers will turn up across the midlands, southern england as well, and they'll tend to drift their way northwards and westwards into mid wales and continue for some time through the morning . time through the morning. eventually the rain does ease in many places. we keep the cloud cover in the south, but much dner cover in the south, but much drier and brighter weather is expected further north. i think for northern england, scotland and northern ireland, some decent sunny spells will turn up. however on the north sea coast a lot of low cloud will be prevalent and that will limit temperatures 11 to 12 celsius whilst it goes up to 21 to 23 celsius in western scotland . celsius in western scotland. similar temperature contrast across northern scotland on friday, warm in the west, cool in the east, southern england some warm sunshine as well, but in between outbreaks of rain continuing even some thundery showers on saturday. the fine

weather moves north but there'll be further rain coming up from the south. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> good evening. it's 7:00, and this is farage with me. tom harwood this evening. now, the rwanda detentions are beginning today. the home office has released footage of the detention of illegal migrants earmarked for removal to rwanda. could the scheme be finally getting off the ground ? we'll getting off the ground? we'll speak to the one and only nigel farage. live from the united states. and speaking of the united states campus protests from coast to coast, violent clashes have erupted within

large pro—palestinian