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>> midcoast supports c-span as a public service along with these other television providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. international scholars discuss global challenges and opportunities. solidarity protests. the rising nationalism and how the global north and south can work to create a new understanding of world order. ao

be here to introduce her to afternoon panels. in keeping with the objective of the conference which is to connect leading thinkers of the global south and north, i am particularly delighted georgetown university is a proud cosponsor of this event. you heard earlier this week from one of our students road scholar she is many respects representative almost 500 students for more than 70 countries to enroll in her bachelors in foreign service part of the discussion on georgetown discussions are urgently needed. the divisions were witnessing globally are more pronounced and disconcerting than any. at least in my lifetime. we are beset by wars and bear

witness to unspeakable atrocities in the gaza, the west bank, ukraine, yemen, institutions included many elite universities in this country are on the receiving end of sustained and i'm sad to say effective attacks. some problems facing humanity cannot and will not be sold by anything single state actor to many of the people we most urgently need to come to the table often do not show up. or if they do they talk down to others or ask others. ironically at the same time not enough people are seriously communicating we live in a world that avalanche of words. they cloak our screens words it often empty or toxic. the communication technology of

today make it possible for people on opposite sides of the world to connect instantly. it we are more fractured, polarized and disconnected than ever. the midst of all the ceaseless talking of one another we lost the ability to listen. desperately need either to learn or relearn that still we just dostart listening to people who historically have been denied a voice such as the palestinians the struggle for liberation has become synonymous with the imperative to feed the people of the world this is why we are here today. not to rehash what is wrong but to figure out how to get things right. how to put things back on track or in track for the first time. we are here to foster what pope francis calls a culture of encounter. constructive conversation peaceful equitable world for which we yearn become a reality unless and until we embrace a

new framework for engagement and discussion. it's built in 1990s not with the rest of the world and not for the entire world. lift up of the conversation now has our attention which is why we must create new spaces for global dialogue. spaces that accommodate rising powers and the voices of the global south who is you will hear shortly may be able to help avert escalating tensions between the u.s. and china for example. assuming the superpowers begin to value the perspective of course but we need new frameworks to spaces in more inclusive conversations but spaces that also accommodate people whose idealism is on but anxiety over the political economic, social and

environmental futures are understandably accused. we need to give greater voice to each of its students and encourage them to work together across borders that have positive change which is exactly what we're doing at georgetown. to engage with the world from within the world to study global phenomena in history for the global perspective. the liberal world class education to future leaders who otherwise would not access it. the exchange of ideas between the faculty and students indo hot in washington d.c. encompasses both campuses enables truly globally minded mission that's consistent with the universities just what values of caring for each other and for the world we inhabit. our campus in delhi expanding global initiatives which include establishing a presence in

indonesia is more difficult today than it perhaps ever was. i am honored to join our faculty and students as we seek to learn from more attentively listen to each other. and now to our panels this afternoon for our first panel with solidarity will examine search of nationalism around the world. how under cuts efforts to forge a vibrant society the new approaches that must be adopted to foster transnational solidarity and action. our second panel cold or 2.0 the view from the rest of the world will explore disastrous implications for the international community of the cold war between the u.s. and china escalates good panel will consider how other countries that national institutions advance national movements might attempt to avert a u.s./china confrontation. so at this point i would like to

invite who will be in a conversation with our moderator "new york times" opinion columnist to come to the stage and kick off our first panel. thank you very much. great crowd. thank you so much for coming out. when incredibly esteemed group. their heart out at 3:15 p.m. so absolutely ruthless tutorial moderator. keep the trains running on time.

already down one. [laughter] it is incredibly fitting we're having this conversation about global solidarity at a moment when the entire country is seized with astonishingly powerful protest movement led by young people in solidarity with the nation in the global south i would argue is the most unique of our solidarity and that is palestine. i spent much of last week on campus with the students attending protests. hanging out with them while they are waiting for their classmates to get out of jail. it has been a really extraordinary thing to witness. i definitely want to hear what you will have to say about that. but to step back a little bit the early years of the millennium, they promised and some might say threatens, a moment of global convergence the technological age that is going

to accelerate the borders and globalization was going to make assault richer and happier. this technological can do spirit. this relied on a continuation of the trajectory that was set by the global north and the global south had little say in. and in many ways it not work for the global south even as the global south was condescendingly being ushered upward on quote unquote development and prosperity supposedly more modern a vision of how the global north had grown rich. we all know because you've written so eloquently in various ways about it, what actually happened and how it all came crashing down. there are couple themes i'm going to introduce each of your couple big themes on every inch of top of mind in this conversation. one that i sense and all of your work is a brief report refusal

of binaries. ideas of hardin separation. the idea that things can be both and that the theme i would really like to explore. the other is an abiding belief in the privacy of human agency. that are emergent all trite in our various fields to keep these places of interconnectedness. might real hope is we can focus on what is the glue that we can emphasize that brings us to greater solidarity and what are the solvents that are dissolving the bonds between us had a weak pushback against them? so next to me i do not to lose a

minute of our conversational time. professor of social sciences at the university of buenos aires she's a fabulous, political activist of political theorist. she has written many books on many topics including liberalism, feminism, and so on. and very excited to talk with you about your work. sit in the boat he's a polyp map a curator, his work is deeply influential and it centers on the complex history and presence of cultural pluralism the local to the global is been written many, many books i will not bore you with naming all them. very much excited to talk about our relationship to history with you among many other things. eight philosopher at the university of tokyo. also leading marxist thinker.

his work centers on questions of growth. questions of climates. help we can start to think about what the future might look like. is very influential book slowed down the manifesto was published early this year end english. a huge bestseller in japan. peter is a professor of journalism and political science. he is also a colleague whose work i am proud to appear alongside time to time. it's fair to st. peter, whether it's a teacher or editor at large as a commentator writing his columns in the times has emerged as an essential voice to explore ideas and paths forward in a situation feels utterly helpless. he is a person i have turned to many times when i felt helpless in the last few months.

then we have joel is the dean of the school of foreign service here at georgetown. more importantly he is also someone who has worked all across the globe and poverty alleviation at the world bank. moderation revolution and can yet we were neighbors in delhi weed walker dogs together. and i think someone who has a lot of fascinating and important things to say about the crucial role that america can play in giving birth to the new world td order. a role not of domination but of collaboration and solidarity. i really need to shut up now i've talked for a long time. so, let's dive in. i want to start with you, veronica. i would love to hear you reflect on what we are seeing on university campuses today. you obviously were a major part

of the protests in 2019. half a million people came out. walk us through what is required to build those coalitions and solidarity's for a movement like that to have that size and power and what are your reflections for the students are out there marching today? >> thank you very much for your presentation and questions that's politically very relevant for us. i think it is very powerful image of the students in the encampment protesting. i think it's a very powerful against the genocide in palestine. so for me it is a powerful image and also i think nowadays the universities political activism.

in argentina some days ago there is a huge manifestation for public education against our current government and he wants to and france there were some other process that youth activism at the universities in a moment intellectual project also. for me it's a very interesting issue help we inhabit our universities and how we build and expand our alliances. because i think in argentina it is very important how the political activism popular

neighborhoods and collectives. expanded alliances with other sectors. you have and it is yours. i think the political challenge is to produce a translation of our struggles try to connect and produce also dimension of our political demands and struggles. to see that uprising here.

and a way to rethink what is knowledge nowadays. what is the function of knowledge. what is also the function of the social media to translate those images and political messages and other spaces. and how we produce a connection between very different landscape countries also. >> this idea of thinking about linkages and ways to bring people together. one thing about your work as you work a lot with the pastor. we are living and a time of a deep obsession with the pastor. we have movements on the right that are in the obviously. and his case and it most of these cases a fictionalized pass that never really existed.

and it strikes me at the core of your work to recast our relationship with the past and to use it to understand the present but loosen the bonds the past might hold on us. could you talk a little bit about that work? how that might apply to the struggles were talking about today? >> thank you for that. also i would like to say how amazed and excited i am to be here in the u.s. of this at this particular time. i honestly never thought i would see anything like this in my lifetime but i belong to a generation that regretted not having been around in 1968. so students for democratic society all of this is part of the law we inherited from the generation that preceded us.

to see this primal scene are blinked out in this here in some ways has been in many ways. among any ways it reminds us crossing a political location for ourselves is not only about thinking through where and how we belong but it is also about importantly what we stand against and to define and contour that. and to do it in this trans national transcultural trans vision away. that to mind is truly actually helpful. it does remind me the kinds of what we grew up in south asia had to do with nonalignment. i get to that in a minute. i'm going to do this is a briskly insistently as i can. i just want to say what we are

seeing around the world i'm going to use fascism i'm aware e it's a vaxed term. wherever it was see the totalitarian regime which work from a very narrow and mentalistic view. to my mind complicit in a nation states. we all know this we sometimes forget it. stands on the grounds of groundf exclusion. exclusion and expulsions have designed most modern nationstates. rather than work with the negativedestructive spirit of pn working out of a notion of what it is. i have found the term how do bear witness?

how to retrieve memories that complicate your sense of who you are? complicate your sense of what your past is? and my own case because we have inherited we tend to cut ourselves off from very, very replenishing connections we have had to the indian ocean networks with east africa and all of that that, this is one example i offer. we need to seek these connections out it helps us for the immobilization of historical narrative. that's part of what i would think of. i think of the bridge builder these are crucial figures that we need to keep in mind. a more proximate horizon i'm thinking of the postcolonial

vision of convergence and collaboration across borders. have a redemptive narrative to offer us as a nationstate. all the events of the 1950s the solidarity congress of cairo in 1967 in the nonaligned movement is character is particularly here giving up of the responsibility of said it with the free world against the soviet. you know these narratives. it's about not losing the hard-won freedoms of the anticolonial struggle to make our own way, a third way in the world and seek out our own destiny. we need to draw on those histories too. and it strikes me as i am

speaking as we tend to speak of the global south. empires that have lost their colonies are colonial they live conceptually in a very material terms with the loss of empire. there are equally involved in this enterprise there's no objectivity here. i would like us all to maybe think together about the common predicament and to see how they will process we are all part of it. i think i'm getting to the point i'm thinking back i think of what my generation in the late 18th and '90s he drew on we were inspired and informed by a very replenishing the came to us from latin america.

the active critical the schooling society. i want us to think about how these circulations from below if you will are still important. how do we recover them? how do we continue with them? i'm going to leave it there butm going to think of this experimental radicalism away with a question for quick so love to come back to that. enter the nuclear fallout of that imperial experience on both the colonized. i think all of us were reared with this fantasy of limitless growth. help us understand why it is a fantasy? how both production us marxism late capitalism has run us

aground on this particular moment. on this exciting and challenging ideas is the decoupling of abundance from growth. so perhaps you could talk about how we move beyond the zero sum of the neoliberal model we've all grown up with? >> will talk about something else. the something over and over. thank you for people coming student coming to i would love sorry. i love to join but i had to come today. [laughter]

the students to george washington university and i stayed there for a couple of hours. they with the perception or divide so want to talk about it. we talk about the divide in the context yes is growth is always associated with externalization at the cost of people in the global south wishing to further divide. for our society and so on and so on. we assume the divide is the global north and south or located in the divide between the u.s. and china.

somewhere outside. i think it's now the perception that functions like ideology in andthe sense of hiding the true divide within the u.s. this divide within the u.s. is how you are associated the democratic and the right wing fascism might come to the u.s. this is not particular to the u.s. it's everywhere in europe. but yesterday came to my own conclusion within our own group.

it's a very different kind of accident this going on. it's really a different kind of action. since getting it is really those people i should have great respect and do something against those students who are in a peaceful manner. arguing for demanding cease-fire something like that. with democracy, human rights, that i really endorse i came to the u.s. 20 years ago and

underwent students to study those ideas. i thought the u.s. is a much better place than japan things are much more. it's a democracy independent i want to come to the u.s. to study about those things but it seems the democracy in the u.s. is a kind of in the crisis. not because of china that is my point the situation is really new we have to think about it. we really say on the democracy does not exist. it really is the insufficiency of democracy and diversity and other concepts like justice and human rights its universal ideas. it must be preserved. we cannot have in order to do

this we need to do things in a different way. i kind of express my solidarity with those students who are trying instead of simply rejecting that kind of idea universal freedom for justice. or simply being satisfied almost hypo critic idea for democracy and diversity. >> it's fascinating because one of things i have seen these protests and among the people let's just call them us nice educated progressive well meaning people is the very strong desire to draw a very clear line between college students and other elements who are protesting. to see this as yes, we can beat

supportive even if we have questions of the college students who are protesting. the anarchists that are aligned with them are the radical elements. there is an interesting binary thinking at work there as well. an insider -- outsider questions that come with that. peter, i feel like we've been there likely feel you live through the heart of this discussion basically in real tight and up personal weight. i would like future reflect i'm not going to attempt a survival question but what you want to talk about? we are in the middle of the holiday of passover have been thinking a bit about the way in which jews but also other people tell certain stories about ourselves which have certain

implications. and need to be open to different kinds of stories. the story of passover can be told in a very nationalistic story. in fact they recently came across a supplement for the passover. during the 1956 or it was really all about basically imagining the egyptians of that story and how they're going to plagues against them they were all going to be destroyed. imagine a story that many of the jews did not leave egypt because they decided to essentially accept their bondage in a whole group of non- israelites actually left this exodus is not an israel exit a group this mix

multitude all kinds of people who base losing the opportunity it killing of the firstborn mentioned that firstborn's made the firstborn being killed by their own parents because they were in it uprising against pharaoh subjugation. what these people what means to be jewish. the tribal conflicts. for me in particular we were talking earlier about south africa i'm a child of a south african. to me it rehearses old jewish conversation where our security lies. between these republicans in

congress who are in line with the american jewish establishment saying security for juice lies in an alliance with us. with a white judeo-christian supremacist states. jewish students in the encampment. it brought me back to this moment and south african history in 1964 the trout went men delegates sentenced to prison for 27 years all of the white defendants are jews two of the five defense lawyers are jews that's the part to the degree they think anyone tend to think about that. but people focus on less is the prosecutor the attorney general was also jewish. the fact he was quite prominent figure in jewish circles in johannesburg he was a man who prosecuted been developed. what was happening in this

debate on the one hand and dennis goldberg was a question of who jews would align with for safety. is it to look upwards towards a dominant group that offers you whiteness not all jews but many whiteness and a security of the powerful? or is it should join in a new idea of the mixed multitude of f people from many different backgrounds that thinking in those terms very much open conflict within their own parents and i think it is a really remarkable thing to see. i think of all the horror the last six months have seen what i

have found is the most powerful and moving thing to me is to see the way this a group of young american jews is perceived by palestinians. and by other people. the way i talked to a doctor in gaza when he knows about the things happening outside in the world. i was practicing medicine are the most unspeakable. he said it came across this group called jewish voice for peace all of us were talking about it in our clinic. so comment to me that's a vision of a global solidarity that certainly was not produced in my generation but maybe it will be produced by this generation. >> quickset is incredibly powerful. we think about the world we're living in now we think of it the world those many ways created by the united states. i think the nice way to describe it is we have been engaged in

trying to pull other countries up with us. had complicated relationship with different places for particular reasons. but you have a sense of how the united states is missing opportunities perhaps making a complete hash of the opportunity to manage the transition from one world to the other. a beat walk us through what is the transition that is happening and how are we screwing it up? >> i'm happy to talk about it. [laughter] i'm trying to think about which hat of the global north you want me too wear it. [laughter] the university administrator the former world bank hat? i have seen many vantage points of the global north thinking about the world. i think the hash up if you will

and i think the challenge for us to think about in terms of understanding and narrative narh get us out of the division is a recognition as the. we have lived through in the last 30 years has had some absolutely extraordinary shifts in the well-being of humanity around the world. whether the narrative as america pulled that up which is not a narrative i would share. never the less 1.5 billion people in a 30 year span have moved out of extreme poverty. and with that still excluded excludingenormous parts of the population. but that extraordinarily important caveat. nevertheless are recognizing all

of the divisions nevertheless produces extraordinary shift in global well-being. the narrative this was a pulling up from the global north. how things should happen that was spread around the world. and we know that is not true. this extraordinary shift in global well-being has come about their extraordinary efforts that have happened across the global south. in china, and india, and indonesia, and reserve in pakistan and bangladesh. name the group of countries who have and i think i have had the privilege of living and working and indonesia and india and kenya. watching this extraordinary effort in those countries of a

borrowing ideas some from the neoliberal consensus on i think we should be clear about that they're aspects they have adopted. they have changed, altered, or reshaped for their own benefit and what you see the extortionate growth in china the growth in india, and indonesia bangladesh and elsewhere into something we still do not fully understand one of the drivers of that growth. therefore we cannot fully understand how to continue to build upon that. and engage others in that process. so that gets me too wear the u.s. is. the u.s. is living in a world in which it believes the story this progress happened because the u.s. -- mike they came to the u.s. to the neoliberal consensus rather than saying there was an

extraordinary period of creativity that is done remarkable things for human well-being.

we are not seeing i think the u.s. be innovative and give them their rightful voice in a new global order that recognizes and builds upon their success. i don't understand i wish i had an explanation as to why the u.s. hasn't done it. i think partly. not partly, it's all domestic politics and the voting public gives to international affairs and i think if america actually was more willing to bring

emerging voices that have achieved so much globally and rethinking global order in which those voices had their rightful say, i actually think it would be extraordinarily strengthening to the united states. >> yeah, this is a question that i have for the group. is that -- is there a presumption in that that it's even after the united states at this point? are we at a stage where -- where the united states actually lacks the strength and moral authority to -- to retain that leadership and to even manage that process or are we -- are we sort of tipping and whattor forms of global leadership do we see emerging that might take its place if the united states can't get it back together? >> one thing -- i think the problem is that america has veto power of others. i just want to say it's more,

preservation, using veto power to stop change. >> do we want to jump in? >> yes. i think that in argentina at least where i came from that it's very rich country in term of resources. we have the 50% of the population and poverty line. so i think that we cannot talk about progress. we cannot talk about post colonial eocene orios. i think that we are leading nowadays every colonization of our region especially the countries that are part of lithium industry an al, chile, bolivia and argentina.

colonial way to approach the question. we have the commander visiting our country two weeks ago and the idea of way of developing our country i think it's a horrible idea because we know destructivism is and what kind of deplacement of population implies and what kind of violence against territories and especially indigenous population who are the really owners of the land but they are completely expropuated means instructivism. so i think it is not an obstruct idea of progress, shape and,

yes, sexist full development means. we have a very concrete violent experience of that kind of policies. >> as you were speaking it struck me, of course, i have to confine myself to india but there are obvious analogies with other places you mentioned. where the economy has done brilliantly and objective, been growth. what i see as a citizen there is leaching away from equity. i see diminishing rights and of

opportunities i see that the older as well as new aspirational elites have become more powerful, their presumption is more conspicuous, we know from lived experience and unrest and discontent in the unemployment that that possibly isn't true. fewer people have been benefited from these processes of growth and a large number of people have been left out and that has political consequences. reservoir of resentment that then plays into the worst possible forms of politics. so i see a completely different picture and i would like to think also of coming back to our theme, global solidarity. i don't know that we can simply

talk about rearrangement of civilian order. i think we have probably in the aftermath of the order, i don't think there's much that we hoped for in terms of rearrangement and which have a place at the table. there's cards circulating for questions and we will return to questions. i'm curious about discussion about u.s. leadership right now and i think there are lots of questions particularly in the te context of israel and palestine particularly its policies.

i was curious more generally how -- how -- you know, what do you see that gives you some sense of possibility, you talked about the students. you talked about things outside of the broader world that would offer alternative to arrangement of the existing institutions? >> i was happy to see young students who participate in workshop and i didn't expect that, you foe. when i was an undergrad in 2009, no one was talking final and

agenda items and politics and the question was quite absent. even on the global scale equality was getting better and so on. more radical ideas in the discourse that young people are interested. the crisis of the establishment.

this is why after a certain point this power is directed against those students who are being radicalized. this is what we are witnessing today. i think this is the, you know, the moment of transformation i'd say because we used to believe in a kind of narrative that the future will be better so why don't we just, you know, patiently wait for next ten years and then everything will be better then things will be even be more better, so if this progress of idea is actually commonly shared by social democrats. the idea of social democracy is assumption of progressive kind of development. i think this is the moment, it's going to get worse. climate crisis will get worse and worse and the situation will be more concentration of wealth,

more disasters and so on, this is degradation. i don't think in that kind of situation the old, i would say it's not old, old social democratic ideas no longer shared by many people anymore especially younger generations because they are the ones that will persons more suffering, right. it will change gradually. i think they are right. they know more what is wrong about the system and interested in the idea of degrowth, socialism, communism, whatsoever and this is really changing after the collapse of soviet union we didn't have that kind

of things. now it's changing. i see some hope. >> there are a couple of phrases that i wrote down from all of you that really kind of stuck with me and one from you around this subject and peter, you and i talked about the difficulty of being, quote, loving critic and being in community but also -- but also trying to stand up for things within that community in a way that -- that could engender solidarity or at least keep the conversation going in the hopes of some days building solidarity. what does that look like being a loving critic? >> often it's in the eye of the beholder you think may be loving. i think this is something that i really struggle with a lot

because the question is, is what is the vocabulary that's available to try to show a sense of solidarity or commitment that will mean anything to the people that you are trying to speak to when ultimately you want to say that you believe that they, you know, as a collective have -- have very, very badly gone off course and so i find writing constantly trying out different things that might be some way of establishing that sense of love and solidarity that would -- that doesn't cost me the actual criticism i want to make or doesn't blunt the force of the criticism i want to make and i think it's very difficult to do that because i think, you know, one of the -- because in the ace of israel and jews, there may

well be analyzing other cases what you see if you scratch the surface the establishment, whether israeli government, american jewish establishment, its own discourse of solidarity actually turns out to be not actually as it looks to me defense of jewish safety but defense of a certain power physician. so you have this very strange situation where there's a discourse that tries to delegitimize pro-palestinian protest because they are a threat to jewish students. anyone who spends time on college campus knows that jews are overrepresented in movements so you're calling for the arrests, you know, suspension,

expultion. you're actually -- you have a definition of jewish safety and solidarity which cuts out a group of people who essentially become made unjewish, right, because they are politically in disposition. you may think you have safety within a certain identity category but actually if you move outside of it and i think, you know, this is to go to your point, picture of this economic successor at emory university. we don't usually see of economic professors. i'm a white economics professors and what happens -- yeah, you're right. you step outside of this and then you realize actually that maybe these identities don't actually protect you if politically you veered too far off and then maybe it makes you think differently about where your solidarity actually lies so i think that's a question that

some younger americans jews are having to face now. as it happens today, protest led by friends of mine in israel who are arrested of group of rabbis, american and israeli rabbis trying to bring to border with gaza arrested and potentially with harsh repurr cushions and they are seeing in israel the same point how much actually does the jewish state build on the claim of jewish safety and what kind of safety does that look like if you challenge the state in the name of the beliefs that you have. >> that video was pretty incredible. oh, my god, oh, my god. that's what it looks like to discover a position in this order. >> i'm going to go to student questions. first questions and folks just volunteer orally pick you on. do you see ai and digital money occasion in critical tools, are

they more likely to increase divisions in the world today? who wants to take that on? >> of course, technologies have a good way of communicating each other and it really increased in the movements like me too black lives matter. however, we know the social network medias are full of state speeches, fake news, propaganda so on and so on. yeah, we -- i cannot say anything. very unique. >> i think that it's very interesting to see in what tense

this digital communications could be a tool for political communities, so i think that we were discussing how a practice of political community can be build and used inside objective of building a political community so i think it's useful to think in that kind of connection rather than the theme of isolated technologies as it helps. >> it's really interesting because my primary relationship with social media and, you know, we haven't really talked about ai, we put that off to the side was one of absolute -- i was a young foreign correspondent who had just moved to india, you know, and suddenly i had access to so many interesting people who i'd have to located them somehow, somewhere and everybody

was like garbage, garbage fire and a lot of us pulled back from social media and said we are not going to be involved anymore. it's been interesting in the movement for palestine. whenever i tell people, like, what's your twitter handle. i said, well, my twitter hand school there and i'm not active on twitter anymore. they are kind of shocked and disgusted and they associate the kind of -- the -- it's really important to us for organizing and i'm more concerned about the neo liberal preservation of my time and not getting sucked into, like limiting my screen time, et cetera, et cetera.

and so i've been thinking about my own kind of assumptions and the journey i've been on. maybe i should go back on twitter. maybe because ultimately twitter, those of us who experience at that time i think some of you experience it together, you know, it was truly accelerating thing and -- and i sometimes wonder if we gave up too much and bought into ideas about the role of technology that made us more passive rather than active. how can we emphasize global solidarity given the trend toward isolationism in the u.s. i'd love to hear you on this. >> it sort of surprises me that the u.s. doesn't take the opportunity to say especially in

light of fixation on -- on the topic of the next panel, you know, the shift to a new cold war, it would seem to me this is an extraordinary opportunity for the united states to engage with other countries in a true dialogue about what reshaping the institutional order to the extent that you have confidence that the institutional order and some kind of multilateral system could have an impact that -- that actually even in its own cold war mentality, if it was the country that it was going after, this is time to change, these institutions that were created 75 years ago in a completely different global situation have run their course and we believe this is the most

opportune time to rethink institutions and for us to be an important player i think there's very little domestic, if you will, opposition to it because mostly because i don't think this is a very important issue in the domestic political dial in the united states which gives freedom to the u.s. to play a very different role in the global order that would ultimately, you know, i think do much better job in engaging the rest of the world in this competition that the u.s. is so -- it's so worried about in the cold war to say, look, we are a country that is deeply open to rethinking this in a different way. so it is actually frustrating to take the opportunity to play that leadership or that role in saying we are open to having

forums that recreate institutions and put on a global agenda. >> question -- >> please, yeah. >> one of the things that i worry about that i don't think we don't have pipelines that are very effective to actually for ordinary americans with the kind of diversity of american experience the making of american foreign policy and to me one of the critical moments that i think i look back to is the moment of the bernie sanders campaign in 2020. they've became a transition mechanism and real bit of move away from the ideas that were prevalent during the clinton administration, the obama administration. yet there was no pipeline from the -- through the sanders campaign to influence the biden administration's foreign policy at all, right, and so you have a

president who is some ways looks like a lyndon johnson who is kind of has internalized certain progressive tent eveningies from below on domestic policy but on foreign policy is really locked into a varying id seems to me kind of cold war vision that -- that i think you're right, that actually the american public is not bought into and that there are a whole group of americans out there who i think could think about foreign policy in really different ways. i think that one of the most disastrous is it serves as filter that filter out people who have more views in general. i read ilhan omar's transcripts, the questions she asked, radically different than anyone on the committee because they weren't coming from a socialist

perspective. she's asking those questions. why does america have troops there and because it prevents those people, i don't think we have strong voices in congress that are warning on american policy on china and taiwan which is the potential greatest massive third world war even in the democratic administration. >> in india she was really important voice and when she got checked off the committee it was a tremendous loss because the lack of sophistication of the american approach to india is -- is just mindboggling to me. >> needs to take the responsibility for the mess that they created but at the same time we don't want, want biden or trump to take that leadership, so it's very hard.

>> your mic. >> i'm bend off this idea the biplan because i had a point that i tend to be -- i wanted to talk a little bit about traditional and organic intellectuals. i think there's room for that discussion here. it is completely to reserve culture, delightful but they tend not always to be open to

other kinds of criteria and questions about what might define the relationship among countries so the entire mode tends to be competitive, alliances tend to be with at least whom you share core values and ultimately military terms and everything else is somehow characterized as soft questions that have to do with some to have things i was talking about earlier, what do you do with entitlements and rights of women in other nation states that you're dealing, what about minorities, what do you have to say about ways in which you might build capacity to fight the climate catastrophes that are upon you but pushes really into the scenario where there's i don't want to make a caricature of this but there are -- there are elites that will not give up and seek global alliances that bring the

powerful together and the voices of the vulnerable, powerless are always somehow left out of this. the challenges to how to get these together and how to find ways of participating in larger political processes. i don't have a prohe's not occasion. it's one reason why this cannot be business as usual. >> i'm going to call it time because we are at time. what a fantastic conversation. such a wonderful treat.

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