>> the committee will come to order, without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time. welcome to the hearing entitled an overview of the budget proposal for the national aeronautics and space administration for fiscal year 2025. i recognize myself, for five minutes for the opening statement. today, we hear testimony from bill nelson about the budget proposal for nasa to fiscal year 2025, this committee plays an important role in the mission by providing policy direction and authorizing activities for the agency. while we make progress with language included in the 2022 chips and science act, it has been more than seven years since the last comprehensive nasa reauthorization bill was signed into law. i am certain everyone, including the administrator, can agree seven years is far too long, as experts have highlighted in committee hearings this year, a lot has

changed for nasa since 2017. we must approach an authorization built with these changes in mind and address a few major topics. the first topic is artemis, i speak with members on both sides of the aisle when i express the strongest support for americans returned to the lunar surface, but support means asking tough questions about the plant architecture and execution of the program. the second topic is the nasa role in fourth urban with the -- orbit when the space station is retired. we heard about this in february and i look forward to continuing the dialogue. a third topic is the management of science missions within the agency's portfolio. we support nasa daring to do big things, particularly in science, but how can congress insure these projects, particularly flagship missions, remain on schedule and within budget? as we think about these topics and consider this

important reauthorization legislation, we must keep in mind recent budgetary issues. nasa does not like plans for future exploration efforts, whether returning astronauts to the moon, exploring our solar system, or developing new aviation technology but these ambitions come at a cost. in may of 2023, president biden sign the fiscal responsibility act capping federal discretionary spending for fiscal year 2024 and fiscal year 2025. one of our challenges is to draft an authorization bill that complies with the law while providing sufficient support for nasa to execute these inspiring missions. failing to do so will force nasa to take on more work than they have the funding to accomplish. which will not only set nasa up for failure but asking them to do too much with too little by providing proper oversight and clear direction and authorizing language, this committee can create the framework for adequate funding for the activities of the agency, a

common theme among the hearings this committee held is the importance of ensuring u.s. competitiveness in research and technology development globally. and today is no different. while the u.s. remains the global leader in space exploration, we face increasing challenges internationally. just last week, china reiterated its commitment to leading two astronauts on the lunar surface by 2030. later this week, china intends to launch a mission to bring samples from the far side of the moon. if they are successful, china will be the first country to do so. we cannot allow china to become the front runner in space exploration. there are too many consequences for competitiveness, national security, and continued ability to explore space. with clear direction from congress, nasa will ensure that u.s. remains a global leader in space and continues to inspire millions of people around the world. i want to welcome administrator nelson back to the committee. where he served for many years.

i look forward to working with you as we move forward with our nasa authorization bill. i now recognize the ranking member, the gentleman from california for an opening statement. >> i joined the chairman and welcoming administrator nelson back to the committee to discuss the president's budget proposal to nasa. we appreciate your leadership at nasa and that you were here today. amidst what could be at times in geopolitical, economic, and environmental strife, nasa continues to be a bright spot, a northstar that sparks a sense of wonder and curiosity about our planet, solar system, and the universe. the mission of nasa to event space and science and human exploration, aeronautics, space technology, and education continues to bring us together and that is something we need. in congress, there is broad bipartisan support for the mission of nasa beyond the united states, nasa leads us in

activities that serve for the peaceful exploration and utilization of our space. the value of these intangible benefits cannot be underestimated. nor can we forget the direct value that nasa has had on societal challenges such as climate change, space weather, and even on tracking and characterizing potentially hazardous near earth asteroids. the discussion provides an important opportunity to examine that progress towards meeting our policy goals for united states and the space program. to identify opportunities for improvement and understand what nasa needs and budget for workforce and infrastructure resources to accomplish its inspiring mission. the fiscal year request for nasa is $25.384 billion on a 3% increase from the enacted fiscal year 2023 appropriation. i believe this request allows us to keep the artemis 2 mission

on track and investing in sustainable aviation among other activities. however, the agreement last year does post caps on discretionary spending and that presents challenges for all of our federal research and development agencies, nasa is no exception, under the 2025 request for nasa, high priority sites recommended national academy surveys could not be initiated. the timeline for mars sample return is to be determined previously selected science missions are being pushed into the future or cancel, while observatories are proposing to be phased out. for human exploration, spaceflight, the plants calls for transitioning from use of the international space station to commercial low worth platforms at the end of the decade while nasa also plans to begin an annual cadence artemis

mission to the moon . no sugar coating the current budget proposal, i recognize tough decisions need to be made. it is essential that this committee understand what roles and decisions in the proposal over others as we evaluate trade-offs. it is imperative nasa has clear plans for action on either side of the present budget horizon. a lot is at stake. i am concerned, as the chairman is mentioned, but reductions in workforce, including those of my home state of california, resulting from prolonged mission timelines. losing skill talent is a further setback and cannot be erased. we need to look holistically at the implications of the 2025 proposal and the health of nasa now and in the future. how will we position nasa to be in the future, or will we stay on the tail as other nations, that do not share our values, i

will continue to ensure that we position nasa for success and the united states continues to lead in the expiration of outerspace. i want to thank you, administrator, for direct leadership, thank you for your service. >> i yield back. our witness is bill nelson, who serves as the 14th administrator of the national aeronautics and space administration. his career includes over four decades in public service representing florida in both chambers during his 30 years in congress. i would most importantly include six years of chairing the house science committee's space science and application subcommittee. that is a real resume item, mr. director. thank you for joining us. i recognize administrator nelson

to present his testimony. >> mr. chairman, with your permission, to submit my written statement in the record. if i may, to give you a couple of thoughts and let's get your questions. >> without opposition. absolutely. >> nasa is a storied organization. this agency does amazing things. a lot of the things that we do is on the edge. next monday, about 10:30, at night, we will launch another vehicle, it is a human rated, the first time america has ever had three human rated spacecraft. the one that will go to the moon, which is orion on top of the big rocket, the sls. the dragon, witch flies on the

falcon 9, which goes to and from the international space station. now, the third one, the boeing star liner, this is the first test flight. we have two test pilots, which will more, and sunny william -- butch wilmore, and sunny williams. if successful, we will have three, the first time this has ever happened. it is all a part of us continuing to come in the human space program, explore the heavens. we are learning so much on the international space station. it is an international station, 15 nations anticipate.

there is science that is just coming of age. some of the pharmaceutical research is just going to knock our socks off. we are also going back to the moon after a half-century. we are going back, not just to go to the moon, for the reason of learning enough to send humans to mars in the decade of the 2040s. nasa's science program, you read about it all the time, the james webb space telescope, look at what it is discovering. i could go on and on. the aviation program, we will fly a needle nose jet this year, proving the different design that we can fly passengers supersonic across populated areas, and not have

the big bang bang of the sonic boom, but more of a muffled roar. so, it goes on and on. i will stop right there well before the five minutes, mr. chairman, and be delighted to try to answer your questions. >> thank you, director nelson, for your testimony. the chair recognizes himself to five minutes administrator nelson, it was recently reported that nasa is considering changing the mission profile for artemis 3, scheduled for september of 2026, currently intended to land humans on the lunar surface . the potential change in profile would result in a mission where astronauts do not land on the lunar surface but rather remain in low earth orbit. is nasa actively considering an alternative for that mission profile to artemis 3 ? what is going on?

>> this is part of our commercial program, spacex is signed up to land in september of 2026. next year, september of 2025, we are going to launch a crew of four, three americans and the canadian. they will test out the spacecraft. it will circle the moon and come home. a year after that, spacex is signed up to provide a lander where we would go into a new kind of orbit, a polar orbit, on a regular -- an elliptical orbit, the crew would transfer to the lander.

that is what is provided in the contract. the article you are referring to is speculation on what happens if they are not ready. naturally, people think about these things. but the plan is to land, and it would be two astronauts on a crew of four that would get into the lander and go down and land. i might say, think about the apollo program and the artemis program . artemis 3, the first lander spacex is contracted for, is the equivalent of apollo 9, apollo 10, and apollo

11. so, it is a very accelerated program. >> very much so. the 2023 strategy for planetary science suggests a total cost of $5.3 billion for the mars sample return, significant increases to that estimate cost have triggered several project reviews including the nasa ongoing efforts to reassess the program. has nasa reconsidered the approach for the mars sample return? is nasa still targeting a total project cost of $3.5 billion? >> $3.5 billion is unrealistic. i pulled the cord on it, mr. chairman, two weeks ago, because the independent review boards had said the cost was going up to $11 billion. and, it was very possible that

we were not even going to get the sample back until 2040. that is simply unacceptable. so, what i did, i said, i want to go out to all nasa centers, including the jet propulsion laboratory. i want to go out to industry, which we now have done with a request for information. to come up with new ideas. i checked in yesterday with the head of the jet propulsion laboratory on how their ideas are, and they are quite excited about coming up with new ideas that can bring that cost down and get that sample back earlier. >> certainly, we wait with enthusiasm.

one last question, in october, the president submitted a domestic supplemental request to congress requesting funding for a u.s. orbit vehicle to safely decommission the iss, and funding to rebuild the nasa facilities in guam and the armstrong flight research center . congress has not passed the supplemental appropriation package yet to date, is the funding for the guam hurricane package including in the budget request for 2025? >> no, sir just like the department of defense, that request for guam is request in an emergency supplemental because that was as a result of a typhoon. our request is $400 million, of which we have been cutting and pasting and chewing gum and bailing wire as an interim solution. our request pales by

comparison to dod, dod is something like $2 billion request. ours is $400 million and also in that request is the request for the funding for the de-orbit vehicle. why is it an emergency? it should not be yet, the regular request for appropriations. because we don't know what putin is going to do. we built the international space station with the russians and operate it with the russians, we have had no hiccup at all with the cosmonauts for moscow, mission control, and houston mission control of which we have both russians and americans in both. we do an integrated crew, an

american astronaut on the dragon . a russian cosmonaut. but we don't know what the president of russia is going to do and we could be an emergency situation where we have to get the structure, as big as a football stadium down safely in 2031. that is why i am pleading to you while in the appropriations committee to put that in the emergency supplemental bill that will be coming up later. >> how much money are we talking about for the de-orbit vehicle? >> fiscal year 2024, $180 billion for a total cost of over six years, $1.5 billion. >> my time is expired. i will turn to the ranking

member. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman and mr. administrator. you have to make tough decisions given the budget and i don't envy you. interesting to hear about the mars sample return decision, and i understand it better now that you have given us your testimony. are we really starting over with a clean slate on this? what is the need for additional technical analysis? where are we on this? >> we are not starting over. as a matter of fact, i am just saying, we cannot do it at $11 billion. >> i am not disagreeing. >> and a sample not returning until 2040. let me give you an example of what the director of the jet propulsion laboratory said, they are looking at, instead of

this huge margins lander -- huge mars lander, and a vehicle , which was the original concept and one thing of many that was running up the cost. use existing legacy, proven techniques and hardware. such as the sky crane that landed two landers, rovers, the size of the truck. we have perseverance up there now. digging around. these samples are about the size of a cigar sealed in titanium tubes. we want to get most of those back. so, come up with new concepts, bring new ideas come in this case it was using a particular legacy. but we want all those ideas to come forth. then, sometime this fall, when

they are on a deadline, we will evaluate them. at that point, make a decision going forward and hopefully it will be much more and what is in line with what the independent review board said and we have had about three of those. that was that the cost should not exceed somewhere in the $6 billion range. >> let me go to another topic. in the nasa authorization act of 2022, we extended the enhanced use leasing authority for 10 years. that allows nasa to lease underutilized non-excess property owned by the federal government under the nasa jurisdiction to private-sector

amenities, state and local governments, academic institutions, other federal agencies did in terms of ames, this has been successful with cal berkeley about open, carnegie mellon, and various other entities. usgs, a synergy has been created. how has this work around united states? >> and google. they are another major -- >> they are maintaining the field. >> yes, ma'am. not long ago i was on capitol hill begging to get enhanced use authority, instead of doing this piecemeal, one year at a time, to get it for a number of years in the future to do exactly what you have outlined. another one would be, for example, we have this huge area

, because, when you test rocket engines, you want to have a buffer. so that people are not disturbed by the sound of the rocket test. what we have done is we are brought in other agencies of the federal government. it becomes a mixed-use space facility. same thing at the kennedy space center. the congressman can tell you, that place has come alive. those old rocket pads that had weeds growing on them have come back to life. there is a lot of commercial activity that has allowed, because of, with regard to the kennedy space center, the mixed- use with the enhanced lease use

. >> if i may, let me make one more comment. the jet propulsion laboratory in california recently had to lay off more than 500 skilled, talented employees as part of the pullback on mrs. i am not disputing your decision, but tragic to lose that talent, do we have a plan to recapture that kind of talent? people with decades of experience. it is a tragic situation. do we have a way to recapture that? >> let me try to set the table for you as to why this occurred. had we had our 2024 request, and 2025 request, that would not have happened. however, congress in his wisdom

, and i can tell you, if i had been in your seat, i would have voted for the bill because the alternative was the federal government to go into default. and the government full faith and credit of the federal government to be impugned. and the sacrifices, the trade- offs, or the compromise, if you will, to get the votes to pass that in both houses, was to cut spending in both 2024 and 2025. nasa was cut $2.5 billion, almost, in each of the years 2024 and 2025. science, nasa science, just in 2024, was cut $1 billion. so, if i have a smaller potato

sack that only holds five pounds of potatoes, and i have 10 pounds that i want to get, it is hard for me to get those 10 pounds in that five pound sack. >> i have gone over, and i appreciate your comments, we should look in the mirror, i appreciate that. thank you, mr. administrator i yield back. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida, congressperson posey. >> how do we handle infrastructure needs? >> yes, sir. you cannot build infrastructure without money. where do we cut in the budget?

i just gave you one example, we are trying to still succeed with the mars sample return. at a cost of about one half of what it was going to be. infrastructure is one of the biggest problems we have. it is aging infrastructure. it is in your district, but it is in every center and nasa facility in the country. what i am hoping, is, when you will get through with the cycle of 2024 and 2025, come 2026, with all of the other physical things you have to consider, there may be more appropriations for nasa to address its facilities needs. >> can you speak to the importance of the commercial

partners in supporting the space station? >> absolutely. they are. look at all the science with commercial partners that we have going on. not only pharmaceuticals, but the planetary science that we have going on. commercial partners, as we go back to the moon, we don't go back just as the u.s. government, we are going back with commercial partners an example is, spacex and blue origin are developing landers and, when we have both, we will make a choice between the two. commercial parts of nasa happen to go back to the 2010 nasa bill

of which kay bailey hutchison of texas and i had something to do with. >> could you explain how china uses space as a foreign-policy tool? >> how china does for all of us do? let me say that, when we fly a foreign astronaut, that is a part of a foreign-policy tool. when we do a foreign experiment , when the university of edinburgh is a major principal investigator on the james webb space telescope, that is all foreign-policy as well. likewise, china does, tries, but is not nearly as successful as we are because they are much more secretive in their space

program. >> how do we counter that announcement that they will invite international astronauts to fly on their space station? we have done that. >> we are not going to counter it. we will see if they do it and to what extent did just like they say, they want to put international contributions into an experimental place on the south pole of the moon. of course, my concern, they don't get their first and say this is our area, you stay out. the south pole of the moon is an important part. we think. because, we think there is water. if there is water, there is rocket fuel. that is one reason we are going to the south pole of the moon. >> they are not going to study

the origin of man or collect rocks, they are going there to colonize and everything they do has a military component. i am about to run out of time. >> the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from oregon. >> nice to see you come administrator nelson. i thank you for focusing your testimony on the many ways nasa benefits america. one of those examples in your testimony is the climate and earth science research, which is essential to the health of the planet, strengthening resilience in our communities and ecosystems. nasa satellites are so critical , giving researchers the data they need to monitor and forecast extreme weather events, climate events. we know that the data provides wonderful educational opportunities to inspire the next generation of scientists

and engage them, engage the public. thank you for the new earth information center at your headquarters in washington, d.c. , helping with that critical piece of improving science and medication. you stated in your testimony that much of what we know about our changing planet is rooted in that nasa more than 40 years of earth observations. satellite resource supports that scientific mission and the scientific community providing an access of a variety of measurement data, air quality, emission, surface biology just to name a few, and i'm excited about the contributions of the recently launched pace satellite . to improve understanding of ocean health. the nasa budget for fiscal year 2025 proposes to restructure the earth site observatory program by breaking missions into smaller elements.

how did nasa arrive at this new strategy and what effects could this change have on nasa approaches earth measurements and climate research? >> our strategy is to understand the very specific, exactly what is happening to our earth, and its climate. we have about two dozen spacecraft up there now that are bringing us various pieces of technical information. and we are pulling this together in a composite 3-d understanding, precisely what is happening. you mentioned, one, more recent , the p.a.c.e. p.a.c.e. is able to look at plankton and we are able to trace it in the ocean like we have never been.

the "a" is aerosols which clearly has an effect on our climate. we had another one, a spacecraft, it was supposed to just look at dust storms and how that was affecting the climate and lo and behold, we got a big byproduct from it, it could identify methane emissions very specifically. so that we could try to stop those. or, in the case it may be an industry, the industry may not know it had methane emissions. >> i want to get another question in. i don't question the value of the program, i want to watch how the change in the budget, in this new strategy will affect it. you talk about the work nasa is doing to the carbonized the aviation industry and the sustainable

financial partnership supports projects to increase aircraft fuel efficiency. and invest in electrified -- reducing aircraft greenhouse gas emissions and considering numerous delays and cost overruns, what steps is nasa taking to see this project to completion and how can congress support that work nasa is doing on sustainable aviation? >> well, we have a serious project that we invested upwards of $600 million to $700 million in a joint project with boeing on producing a midrange, single aisle transport aircraft that will reduce fuel consumption by 30%. that project is underway and it will be substantial you take, like the boeing 737, is the most heavily trafficked commercial airliner. if you can save 30% of fuel by

a different design of the wing, a high wing that is long and thin, and therefore, being high can support bigger fan jets, you can get 30%, combination between the engine and the wing. that is a substantial effort. we started on electric aircraft , but that has been overtaken by industry. you will see a lot of industry coming out with electric powered aircraft. all of this is to do exactly what the goal is you stated very eloquently. that is, the word is "sustainable." i call it save energy in flying. >> the chair recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. weber.

>> good to see you again. i am amazed you know so much about these things, aircraft, where do you store these things ? up here? >> used to be like a bathtub, you fill up the bathtub, you drain it, there is a residue. you fill it up again, drain it out, a little more residue. over the number of years, i get an accumulation. >> i have this sinking feeling you have discussed this before. many of the employees at johnson space center live in my district, the facility is in a different district, we are trying to route clear creek around that so it can be my district. we have discussed that the orbiting of the iss at the end of the decade, but not what that does to the people that are employed backing that up. what does nasa plan to do with the workforce that currently supports the iss mission after

2030? is there a plan? >> we want to keep them but that depends on what you appropriate. as a matter of fact, the fact that this two years, 2024 and 2025, nasa has been cut between the two years, $4.7 billion from our initial request. that will have an effect on some of the contracts. at all nasa centers. i am hoping that, when you get to 2026, the congress may see the wisdom of some of these programs. let me assure you, you have a lot of folks in johnson, a lot of really good folks, good programs, you will never have to face the situation i had to face as a senator for the kennedy space center when we shut down the space shuttle.

they have 15,000 employees and they went immediately down to 7000 employees. that is not happening anywhere in nasa now. it is much more manageable but a lot depends on the congress in the future. >> i will remember that i know that was heavy on people's hearts. i am assuming they are thinking about now, or facing a similar demise. are you communicating this to the employees? >> absolutely. what we are also doing, because you posited the question about the orbiting of the international space station, we want to do that, only when we have commercial space stations in low earth orbit in order to do the research and the training, and so forth, we need to do in low earth orbit for our astronauts as they go further out into the cosmos.

we think that, by 2031, the business case will have reasonably been made for low earth orbit commercial space stations. and we have put seed money, significant seed money, into three commercial operations that are now developing commercial stations. >> we appreciate nasa taking the lead on that thank you for that. china's -- they have a space station in orbit and the ccp would love to whittle down on america's space program, the orbit of the iss, what is the plan for nasa to maintain american competitiveness with china when it comes to presence and low earth orbit? expand on that. we don't want china to be in

the lead. you remember captain kirk, the final frontier, extrapolate on what you mean by that. >> by the way, it means beyond low earth orbit, also moon, mars , and beyond. >> i agree. >> for example, we never want to give up this incredible scientific research in leo. we are on the cusp of major breakthroughs coming up on pharmaceuticals for disease let me give you an example of two. number one, a very effective drug on certain types of cancer, keytruda. but the cancer patient has to

take intravenously, frequently, long periods of time. with that drug, they found out how, through protein crystal growth on the space station, to make that drug into a shot instead of intravenous. so that the patient can go in, get a quick shot at the doctor, that is one example. stem cell research. being used on a plethora of diseases. what happens when you grow stem cells in 0g, you can grow a lot more of them. on earth, when you grow them, they club to the bottom and a lot of them died. in space, they are suspended and they don't die as much. you freeze them and bring them back. that is in its infancy but

there is promise. >> we appreciate the help. >> the chair recognizes congresswoman ross. >> thank you for holding this hearing and administrator nelson, thank you for the fabulous job you are doing and nasa. my state of north carolina has contributed to nasa for decades, the home state of james webb. of course, christine darden, one of the hidden figures who broke barriers in the s.t.e.m. industry and racial and gender equality, from north carolina, we have three, including my colleague. christine was the first african- american woman to be promoted into sr. executive service at the langley research center. just last week, i got to join governor cooper, a local

educator, and a third grade class from the explorers school in my district to honor christina cook. she is a three-time graduate of north carolina state university and the only woman selected to join the artemis 2 mission. she was also a participant in an all women's spacewalk, which we are still celebrating. i want you to know that i will continue to fight for robust funding for nasa so we can keep doing incredible things that you have been leaving. and, everything that makes groundbreaking research possible. so, i want to follow up on some of the workforce issues that we have heard about today. we hear a lot from the burgeoning commercial space sector, and we know that that benefits the nation, exploration, our economy, and

that is good. it also means that there is increased competition for trained aerospace professionals. i wanted to know, to what extent does that increased competition for science and technical professionals affect nasa and your ability to fill and retain experienced top-notch people? >> congresswoman, you have put your foot -- your finger on the allure of private industry. to bring nasa folks into private industry because they can pay them so much more. that is a real concern. however, there seems to be a mysterious pixie dust at nasa. that people enjoy working there.

the proof is in the pudding about what some of these wizards do. now, certainly, any success we may have is because of the commercial sector as well. because the body you think of as nasa, about 60,000 employees, is basically about 17,000 civil servants and 45,000 contractors. they all wear the nasa badge. but they are all part of the nasa family. it is the combination that we have been able to be successful. again, i tell you, everything we do is on the edge. when we launch next monday night , it is white knuckle time. but that is the business we are in.

these folks really are rather incredible. >> absolutely agree with you. nasa s.t.e.m. are important to build a pipeline and it is important to track, impact efficiency of our investments and i'm glad to see your progress in developing and maximizing the use of s.t.e.m. gateway , that is the database that lets us know what is going on. could you speak more about the s.t.e.m. gateway and your evaluation work in the office of s.t.e.m. engagement ? >> yes. you have been generous with us in the appropriations to keep this s.t.e.m. effort going. reaching out with grants, to universities, colleges, community colleges, all over america. we particularly, for example,

make an effort to get into rural colleges and universities so that we are not missing the talent that may be hidden, like christina cook. so, there is a very serious effort. we have a huge intern program at nasa that we pay them. we hiring 30% of our interns. i wish you could see these interns and talk to them, their eyes are as big as this. s.t.e.m. is very much a part. mr. chairman, as a part of s.t.e.m. , but we learn from apollo when we went to the moon and did all that, it so excited two generations of students, that

they became engineers and scientists, and technicians. we are going to see the same thing come out of the artemis program as we go back to the moon and then to mars. >> thank you. >> the chair turns to the gentleman from texas, mr. babin. >> i like your analogy about the bathtub, we all have some residue. thank you very much. thank you for what you are doing and your inspiration. i say that very sincerely. talking about s.t.e.m. and the excitement and the inspiration that nasa instills in our youth to go forward and create these wizards.

very exciting, thank you. i would like to start by keeping priority programs, talking about this, on track, submitting a fiscal year 2025 budget request that largely complies with the fiscal responsibility act that the president signed in may. as we work on the 2025 request, we have to finalize the fiscal year 2024 budget. i would like to work with you to ensure that nasa remains on track despite the challenging budget environment that we find ourselves in now. as you work with appropriate is to finalize the 2024 spending plan, i would like to call your attention to a few priorities to maintain existing funding levels within the space operations budget. congress provided you with a great deal of latitude and we hope you are able to use this in a way, to use this funding for space operations and i want to make sure we are all on the

same page. the final 2024 appropriations for nasa space operations is $46.7 million below 2023 levels, the 2024 request included $180 million for the de-orbit vehicle. the contractor slips several times, under the current plan to work contract this summer, nasa could be challenged to allocate funding for this vehicle within fiscal year 2024 based on current schedules. i believe, within this given timeline nasa can maintain current iss operations at 2023 rates. it is critical now more than ever to maintain the full functionality of the international space station that mr. weber mentioned in his questioning and support our current crew and cargo missions

because of the amazing things that are going on. i was a healthcare professional, a story about cancer, creating drugs, and things in zero g are fastening. on capitol hill, you mentioned the necessity of keeping the iss fully operational until we have a follow-on cld. it is critical we maintain our presence in leo for the reason he brought up, the chinese craft is up there as we speak. i know you don't have this information at your fingertips right now, but will you provide us with the following information as soon as possible so we can understand the full range of options nasa has in implementing the 2024 appropriations so that iss program can continue to return

the great science and advanced exploration that has been coming back to number one, the amount of funding obligated for the u.s. dv in 2024? an updated schedule for the word of the contract for usdv? a list of full-time equivalent personnel for the iss program for each fiscal quarter for the last five years? contract associated with the iss program including contractors over the last five years? last, number five, workforce cost and contractor rates planned for the iss program over the next five years? mr. administrator, i stand ready to work with you, you are a joy to work with and i always appreciated you and the great work you have done in your capacity as our administrator.

but we need to ensure that nasa has the necessary workforce and funding to enable the continued success, 22 years, of the international space station. can i count on you to work with me on this? >> of course. i can tell you that the first question you asked, in the 2024 budget, there is $180 million, for starting of a u.s. de-orbit vehicle, which i am begging congress, in the next emergency appropriations bill, the one that will address warm and the typhoon -- guam and the typhoon for the department of defense and nasa, that you include, the argument i made earlier in the hearing, that that is an emergency because we don't know what president putin will be

doing and can't count we will have cooperation to the next six years to be able to de- orbit the station safely, most of it will burn up, but the big chunks, to put them safely in the graveyard in the southern pacific ocean. we desperately request that that $180 million and the rest of the six year total funding of $1.5 billion for the u.s. de- orbit vehicle be put in the emergency supplement appropriations. >> i understand. >> thank you. the chair recognizes mr. sorensen for five minutes

>> i joined the chairman and the ranking member and welcoming administrator nelson back to the committee. thank you for your leadership of nasa during this important time, for our nation time and for our nation's space program. as a self-described science nerd, being a meteorologist and now a member of congress, i often tell my neighbors back in illinois how important science is i explain to them how investing in science helps grow our economy, helps create good paying sustainable jobs and addresses problems our neighbors face everyday. and that is why i champion investing in nasa, one of our nation's leading science agencies and why the work that you and folks at nasa do is so important. just this month, millions of americans were looking up through their glasses at an eclipse. it's my hope that the next generation is interested in

science because of what happened. but also, as we look up, we're learning more and more about how solar storms on the sun bring us not only beautiful displays of the aurora borealis, but recent events that disrupt technology and infrastructure. why is nasa proposing to cut so much of the hilo physics division funding if we have such a need and understanding? >> well, we're not, congressman. and, by the way, as congressman babbin is still here, i want to thank the two of you for how you get along, you as ranking and he as chairman in the subcommittee. we wouldn't of, had we not had to cut a billion dollars from science. and that as a result of the compromises that were made in order to -- for the country not to go into default on its debt. and i understand that. and i said i would have voted

that way. but it's a hard reality for us, and you have to make some choices of where you're spending. now, the truth is we got a lot of good stuff going on in hilophysics, and so we're going to continue, the president proposes, the congress disposes. >> right, right. so, administrator, if we in congress are forced to continually cut budgets year after year, does that mean that there's going to be a growing gap in funding because the public sector and the private sector move far away? and so i guess what i'm saying is how do we meet the objectives, for instance, of the i.s.s. deorbit and the artemis missions, if we have a growing gap in funding? >> well, that's what i have been pleading for that come '26, when you get out from

under the constraints of '24 and '25 that you will hopefully be a little more generous in making sure that there's not that gap that you describe. >> what do you think we need to do to make sure -- i'm going to go back to the young s.t.e.m. student for a moment. when we look forward to what we are going to learn, how do we continue to build the work force 245 we're going to need to meet our objectives? >> well, the enthusiasm is certainly there. we're trying to steer them in a way by having them -- and we have a lot of interns. we send out a lot of grants, we try to distribute that across the board so that you're finding talent wherever it is

and get them enthused. another thing we do, we have a secret weapon, and it's called an astronaut in a blue flight suit. >> right. >> and we frequently have our astronauts go in to classrooms, and i'm telling you, there's nothing like getting attention and suddenly excitement into the s.t.e.m. field when they start talking about space flight. >> i always look forward to bringing nasa astronauts to my district. i hope we can do that here soon. my time has expired, but i yield back. thank you so much, administrator. >> thank you. >> i'd like to recognize the gentleman from california, mr. goor see a. >> thank you, chairman. mr. administrator, good to see you again. it feels like it was just last week because it was. >> i've been losing sleep over this mars sample recovery thing for a couple months now, and jpl, especially to use your

bathtub metaphor, the brain drain right there is real. we are losing critical national security talent and work force there. i know the plan. i don't disagree with it. i get the metaphor of, hey, you had a five-pound bag, and you got 10 pounds of potatoes that you're trying to fit into that bag, and you had to make trades. but i would submit that this is no small potato. what i'm afraid of is that when we go to open that bag up in fy '26 when we get back on track and you get a response from this rf5 that you're going to be potentially seeing, you know, potato chip crumbs at the bottom that used to be jpl. so what i'm worried about is the next four months, five months. is there something we can do collectively to keep them whole, to not impart another significant impact to jpl's

work force? because i'm hearing it from adjacent domains, missions, agencies that those layoffs are affecting, you know, not just nasa science but also dod, nro, true national security implications across the board. and we don't needs to get into the specifics there. but can we work together to look at potential options to bridge the next four or five months somehow to prevent that bathtub from being drained to the point where it's irrepairable damage? >> congressman, i've been losing sleep over this too. the good news is what i reported earlier -- you, i think, were out of the room. >> i was here. i gotcha. i heard you. >> i had that conversation yesterday with the head of jpl,

and dr. leren feels that they're going to be able to come up with a retrievable of the mars sample enough sample return and get that cost down by using new and creative ideas and old legacy ideas that are much less costly. and so i approach this optimistically, and certainly to get a sample back before 2040 -- >> sure. >> -- that's too long. >> that's way too long. so i guess walk me through some the next -- from an acquisition timeline and your acquisition strategy on this rfi, you're going to get responses here in may, june, some questions i'm sure that are going to go back to jpo and other industry

partners. is there an opportunity to fund before, say, october 1st and start funding this new approach at some level that is not just necessarily the $330 million that we ended up landing on? >> it's somewhere in the fall that we can take the ideas that are generated and then put that into a contract. >> okay. so it may be enough confidence for a vendor -- and i'm not trying to put a finger on the scale on source election here. i want to be clear. this is an open competition. i'm assuming no one has the inside track, and this is not prewired for anyone. but when you get the good ideas back from all of the competitors, you may be able to instill enough confidence in one of -- whoever the down select folks are, one or two, however many players are, to go ahead and do long lead investments on their own at risk knowing that there's a

lifeline coming in an fy '25 line item that would allow them to go execute this program with confidence? >> that's my hope, congressman. >> okay. that's very encouraging. that's, i think, a very important thing for us all to be aligned on. >> congressman, hi to do battle to keep this thing from being canceled. >> i know. you did god's work, and we didn't help you. i think it's the executive branch as much as the legislative branch. but i think the key now is to figure out how to make one plus one equal three and to get to a lower price point, get the samples back before 2040, and then -- but more importantly, keep that center of the universe asset in pasadena whole. and if not whole, at least sufficiently so that they're -- sufficiently staffed so they're not getting below critical mass so i appreciate everything you've done, mr. administrator, looking forward to that and continuing that partnership

over the next few months. appreciate you. yield back. >> thank you very much. now i'd like to recognize the gentlelady from north carolina. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you, administrator nelson, for being here with us today. the safety of nasa's astronaut is always top of mind for me and for everyone involved in overseeing our nation's space program. i know how deeply and personally you care about safety, and i know how vigilant you are ensuring nasa maintains a robust safety culture informed by the lessons of challenger and columbia of which we are so tragically familiar. but the world of human space flight has changed dramatically for nasa over the past decade through the commercial crew program, the agency now regularly sends its astronauts to the international space station on rockets that are designed, built and operationally managed by

private contractors. the agency is increasingly looking to use this commercial services model for other human space flight programs as well. as a result, nasa must be capable of conducting rigorous oversight over the safety cultures of its contractors to prevent the development of blind spots in its own ability to ensure mission safety. i believe it is critical for the agency to have well-crafted and targeted oversight procedures that can ensure its contractors are every bit as committed to a culture of safety as nasa is itself. so my first question is what tools and procedures does nasa possess to evaluate contractor safety culture? >> that is at the top of the list of everything that we do. we evaluate them, we are all over the design, we are all

over the building of whatever the spacecraft or instruments are, and at the end of the day, nasa if it is a human space flight, nasa has the veto. >> thank you for that. >> if nasa makes recommendations to a contractor about how they can improve their safety culture, do you expect the agency to follow up with the contractor to make sure the recommendations have been adopted? >> we do that, and we do it all the time. >> okay. and finally, do you believe nasa's ability to conduct safety culture oversight of commercial service providers is impacted by the agency's reliance on those providers for indispensable mission support? >> if that means are we letting

anything slip, it better not. >> that's what i mean. thank you. >> may i point out to you, congresswoman, that one of the tragic results of inattention was the space shuttle challenger, and the pilot of challenger was mike smith from north carolina. >> thank you. i yield back, mr. chair. >> yes, ma'am, thank you. and i'd like to recognize the gentlelady from oklahoma, ms. bice. five minutes. >> thank you, chairman. administrator, it was great to see you in oklahoma under a bit of sad circumstances with the passing of general thomas stafford. we celebrated his life a couple weeks ago, and i was honored to be a part of that, and thank you for recognizing and honoring such an incredible oklahoman. let me start by asking you -- i am still fairly new to congress. this is my second term. and what i have noticed is that there seems to be a lot of work

being done in the space arena, but we tend to in some cases siloing a lot of that work. how can nasa, the faa and the dod strategically pull resources and expertise to conduct essential research in an area of fiscal -- in n era of fiscal constraint that ensures we'll have continued innovation crucial for maintaining global leadership in civilian aviation? >> well, aviation research is the first "a" in nasa, the national aeronautics and space administration. so where did the wing tips come from that improve the efficiency of the wing? where does the design of the wing -- often these things that

make aviation safer, more efficient, and earlier in the meeting i described, for example, the joint project that we have with boeing to try to have that single aisle, mid- range transport save 30% of fuel. all of this is a major part of what we do. it's not just space, it's not just aeronautics, it's also climate as well because we have the instruments that measure the climate. we're coming in to a new era of air mobility, particularly in urban areas. so the old idea of the jetsons suddenly flying around, that's right upon us. , and we are researching that. and what we found is that a lot

of industry, commercial enterprises are having major breakthroughs in that. and so i'm -- we're all over aviation, and that is clearly a very proud part of nasa. >> you sort of briefly touched on this, but i think it's worth maybe diving a little deeper into it. as you look at sort of what the next phase of space looks like, what keeps you up at night? >> at the end of the day defying the forces of gravity with millions of pounds of thrust, putting human beings up there in a very unforgiving atmosphere and bringing them back alive through the fiery heat of re-entry.

for the astronauts coming back from the moon, they'll hit 5,000 degrees fahrenheit. so that hopefully doesn't keep me up completely all night, but i know that everything that we do like that, we're right on the edge. but that's the part of discovery. that's the part of adventure. that's the part of being in a frontier mode, going out there and doing unusual things. president kennedy said it best at rice stadium in september of '62, he said we go to the moon and do other things not because it's easy, but because it's hard. and what we do is hard, but it's worth doing. >> thank you. and i'll just maybe wrap up by

mentioning there's a lot of work being done i think by nasa to encourage young people to consider getting into the sort of aviation space, and i think we need to make sure that we continue that and focus on it because i have been to, you know, some of the facilities, and when you see these young people walking through, looking astronaut suits and previous videos, they get such excitement, and i think we need to continue to foster that because they are the future of nasa. with that, mr. chairman, i yield. >> thank you very much. and i'd like to recognize the gentleman from illinois, mr. kasten. >> thank you, mr. acting chair. and thank you, mr. administrator for being here. i want to chat a little bit about the tempo mission that you got under way. and if i understand this right, and correct me if i've got this wrong, u.s. synchronous monitoring north america and sort of neighborhood level

granularity, am i about right on that, about the monitoring capability it's going to have? >> just one second. >> this is the mission that's monitoring local pollutants in the atmosphere. >> well, it is one of the ones that is doing that, and what we are trying to understand, all these different things that affect our climate such as dust, such as aerosols, such as the changing of the elevation of oceans and fresh water, all of these missions are designed on some particular aspect of then putting it all together in a 3-d composite. >> yup. and i'm totally supportive of the mission. i guess my first question is just is that -- is that going

to be the highest temporal and spatial resolution we're going to have on this level of monitoring, at least from a space-based system? >> well, it is the next iteration, but we'll get even more sophisticated as we go on. >> and will the data that comes out of that be publicly available, or is there -- is there any concern about -- i mean, i could think of national security reasons why you might not -- we might want to be a little cautious about a particular plume. i can also imagine reasons why the private sector might be reluctant. so what's going to be the process of that data being made to the public? >> it's available. >> in realtime as it's released? >> well, there'll be a lag of some seconds, you know, as it comes back to earth. >> okay. that's cool. is there -- is there the potential to do that globally? and i'm thinking about things like several years ago there

was this concern about hydrofloro carbon leak from china that were violating international treaties, and i would imagine from a national security perspective if we had the ability to pinpoint where that leak was coming from at a specific point, it might be in our national interest, the chinese might have been reluctant, is there the potential to make this global, or does that create some diplomatic problems? >> global. >> global, okay. >> just like what i mentioned earlier. we have one up there called e.m.e.t. it was going to look at dust coming off of the sahara. lo and behold, unexpectedly, it can pinpoint very specifically methane leaks. >> oh, wow! >> and that's global. >> so you are going to be monitoring methane from this as well? >> absolutely. >> it's already happening. >> well, you're reading my mind, and i'm intrigued, and let us know how we can continue

to help this. i'm -- a part of what i'm thinking about on this is that we -- we are going down the path to have global methane monitoring, global methane tracking as a climate forcing compound in the atmosphere. we know that methane leak rates exceed what is documented, right? you know, if you look at like the balance on natural gas extraction and what's sold, we know there's a gap that's bigger. and it's really hard to pinpoint exactly who's responsible. to the extent that this has the ability to get granular and temporal, i would assume this starts to be something where we can look and say, okay, this specific entity at this time of day was operating in that location, and so we have some accountability. will that data then -- i guess what's the plan to coordinate with other agencies on the use of this data? >> it is available, and it also is very specific. this is what was such a

pleasant surprise about the spacecraft e.m.e.t. we can pinpoint methane emissions now so specifically that if, for example, there's a real polluter, we got the evidence, but what we find out is that some industries don't even know that they are emitting methane, and so this is valuable information for that industry to be able to stop it. >> well, i -- >> and methane, of course, is one of the major greenhouse gases and carbon dioxide. >> it's precisely why i asked the question. we were up in alaska last year and looking at permafrost melt and how all that goes. it's fascinating. happy to have you here, proud to have you here.

looking forward to working with you to make sure we can continue to expand these programs. yield back. >> thank you very much. now i'd like to recognize the gentleman from georgia, dr. mccormick. >> thank you, mr. chair. and it's good to see you, mr. administrator, senator, captain, astronaut. there are seldom times i get to see somebody who has as many titles as i do and more, and, actually, somebody who i'm a little envious of and one thing i've always wanted to do that haven't been able to do. as a matter of fact, if you have advice for a guy who would love to follow your tracks into space some day as a dock and pilot, just let me know. i'd be happy to meet with you for lunch. >> we need medical doctors to go to mars. >> i'm sure a lot of my constituents will likely send me there. appreciate you being here today. in all seriousness, nasa and space exploration are virtual -- are vital for our national

security, economic growth, scientific advancement, international prestige and our inspiration as americans. just recently, astro lab incorporated a startup found by a veteran space flight robotic engineer who developed a prototype, an exploration vehicle flex. if nasa integrates flex into the artemis program, it will mark the return of passenger- capable rover to the lunar surface since apollo 17 in 1972. it's this kind of discovery that inspires the future generations of scientists, engineers and explorers, pretty exciting to me too. with this being said, nasa has been plagued by the same issues for years, constant deadline extensions, flawed cost estimating processes and poor financial management. administrator nelson, in your testimony, you highlighted the great success of the

international space station and the milestone of 23 years with continuous human presence in low-orbit earth: as nasa approachesice 2030 deadline to decommission the national space station and aims to transition into platforms in the low earth orbit, do you believe nasa has an obligation to ensure continued human presence in the low earth orbit? >> yes. >> great. and, you know, it's funny. i'm going to get a little off track. we just talked about some of the pollutants and how earth might be warming. and i agree, there might be climate change. i think the one thing that worries me is that we get away from science. in a senate article that was published back in 2007, it talked about the heating of other planets in our solar system. that was back in 2007. it's continued. would you say there's more congreet carbon dioxide and vehicle emissions in neptune, jupiter and mars during this period of time, just like there

is in this earth? >> i don't know. >> i would say probably not because i don't know of anybody who's building concrete or who has vehicle emissions, those planets are also heating. i would say that's pretty much factual unless you know of some life that you haven't told us about so far. >> well, what i do know is that we are seeing the heating up of the earth, and our stleuments would indicate that. >> i'm not saying that at all, sir. i'm saying it has in other planets in the solar system that doesn't -- we love facts. we love to talk about things that matter, things that we can change. but i also don't want to waste time and money on things we cannot change. back in the '70s, we were talking about global cooling, during some of the highest carbon dioxide emissions of all time. and we've seen decreases in

certain pollutants while the earth is heating. so i just want to have a scientific conversation with you and i about what's really causing the heating, and can we effect it or do we need to put our money elsewhere to help us adjust for those while the earth continues its natural cycle? because i am a scientist. i do understand how much carbon dioxide is out there and how much the use produces as a result of that carbon dioxide. would you agree it could be due to something other than methane and texas that's causing the earth to heat? >> well, there are multiple. >> there you go. yes, sir. and that's where i agree with you 100% as a scientist, multiple factors, some which we can, and some which we cannot affect. i know i'm almost out of time. i want to ask you one more quick question. commercial and international patterns are key to success of the artemis campaign. the commercial lunar payloads service housed within the science mission directate has as a resulted in the first ever

landing on the moon and commercial landing in over 50 years. are there opportunities other than the commercial payload service and the directate have mutual interest in the commercial capabilities? >> when we are going back to the moon as a result of i take it back to the twbt nasa authorization bill, we said we're going to do it in a different way. we're going back with commercial partners, the eclipse program that you just mentioned, interestingly is like we are sending scouts into the wilderness ahead of time on the south pole to scout out for us before we get our astronauts there on the surface so that we've got a better idea. one of the things that we're clearly looking for is water. we've got a couple of instruments that are going this

year on clips missions, one called intuitive machines that is actually going to be digging on the south pole to see if there's water content. we know there's water there because we've seen the ice in the crevices of the constantly shattered rocks. but this is all a part of making the space program something larger than just as we went to the moon before, and we're going to the moon, by the way, not just to go to the moon. we're going to the moon to learn how then we can go all the way to mars and beyond. >> thank you, sir. i'm without time, so i yield. thank you. >> i'd like to recognize the gentlewoman from virginia, ms. mcclellan. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. director, senator nelson, i actually am going to start with a question from my 13-year-old

son who wants to be an astronomer, who is a big fan of the great observatories. he looks at, uses images from hubble, spitzer and even the now-deorbited compton telescopes. but he wants me to ask you specifically about chondra, the ex-gray telescope that under the current budget proposal looks like will be -- could be ending, and he's very concerned, as i know a number of astronomers are, that this could leave a blind spot in the collection of x-ray information in the future. so can you assure my 13-year- old son, jackson, that nasa is still committed to x-ray images in space and the data that you collect in that way? >> earlier i had talked about how the compromises that you

all had to make which certainly understandable cost $24 and $25 to have less money. in science just in '24, it's a billion dollar cut. and so you have to make some choices. shandra has been phenomenally successful, but we have new missions that are coming on. we're going to keep it going as much as we can. you just can't sustain it at the previous funding levels. and so we are having a senior review during this year to get community impact on alternative operational scenarios for shandra and the hubble space telescope as well to move to a

more cost-effective way. i can't spend for nasa money that we don't have. >> i understand that. i understand that. and i think that question that i just asked is an example of how important it is that nasa makes science fun and exciting for kids because, again, the images that he has seen from these telescopes have gotten him more interested and fascinated in s.t.e.m. subjects in school than anything else that his father and i could have done. >> may i point out the shandra is 25 years old, and it's having operational issues with regard to thermal problems? so we're going to keep it going as much as we can, but we have to lessen the funding. >> and i understand that. but could you speak to the -- some of nasa's programs that

are focused on our younger students, particularly during the summer and time they spend out of school so that we can get more students as passionate about space and science as my son is? >> well, for example, the discoveries that we're having with the james webb space telescope is just phenomenal. everyday almost it seems like there's a new discovery. if he's particularly interested in far reaches of this universe, it's not too long, we're already discovering other planets with that, the ones that we found thus far are gashes, but we got another mission coming, as your son grows up and as he stays interested in this is going to be interesting, it's called the nancy grace roman space telescope, followed by habitable worlds space telescope in the 2040s.

we're going to be able to find other stoney planets that are just the right distance from a medium-sized star that has carbon and water on them. and lo and behold, that's beginning to be another planet like planet earth. i mean, there's so many possibilities out there. >> thank you. and going to more college students, can you talk about how nasa's budget will continue to support partnerships with hbcus and increase outreach efforts to students who are currently underrepresented in the s.t.e.m. fields? >> we specifically reach out to abcus and other minority institutions in the grants that we give out. we make sure that we do that. an example i gave early in the hearing is that, for example,

we give grants to rural universities and colleges that otherwise might not -- a student there might not have the opportunity of receiving a grant like that. so we're trying as hard as we can to distribute it across the country. >> thank you. i yield back. >> thank you very much. and now i'd like to recognize the gentleman from alabama, mr. strong. >> thank you, chairman babbin, and ranking member lofgren, thank you, mr. nelson, to you and your staff today for being here for nasa's fy25 budget request. i have the i'd like to take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude. i would also like to note that i have full faith and confidence in marshall's newest

director, joseph pelfrey. mr. administrator, following an uncrewed sls lay flight in 2022, your agency planned to launch a crude lunar fly-by- mission artemis2 in november of '24. earlier this year your administration revealed that because of various hardware issue, the mission is now delayed until september of 2025, nearly one year behind schedule. mr. administrator, what specifically led to this nearly one-year delay, and what impact will this have on future artemis missions? >> safety. we do not fly until it's ready. and we never will as long as i'm around. i've seen seven of my friends suddenly be killed in the challenger disaster that was 10 days after the flight that i was on. we are sending a whole new

spacecraft and a whole new rocket to the moon. we're going to make sure that that heat shield is functioning as it should be because they are coming in hot and fast they're coming in at mach32 and it's 5,000 degrees. this new spacecraftorrion is a very complicated machine, and we are just simply not going to fly it until it's ready. >> thank you. delays always lead to need for more money, and in a fiscally constrained environment, that concerns me. as the leader of nasa, what actions have you taken to ensure the artemis3 mission and future artemis missions stay on schedule? >> well, again, we're not going to fly them until they're ready. but in this case, artemis-3 is the first landing on the moon.

we have contracted with spacex for september of '26. that's the contractual date. but if they're not ready, obviously we're not going to fly. >> okay. marshall is home to the best propulsion experts in the nation, marshall has also proven successful in manufacturing projects such as the rapid analysis and manufacturing propulsion technology. how is nasa leveraging additive manufacturing to best optimize technology for future moon-to- mars missions and deep space exploration? >> marshall has a brilliant future in nuclear thermal propulsion and nuclear electric propulsion. and i think it's going to take that to get us to mars because right now it would take us seven or eight months with conventional chemical propulsion. once you got there, you'd have to stay on the surface a year

or two until the planets realigned so that you could get back in seven or eight months. >> i totally agree. i think that's the only way we can get there. >> i think we got to go faster. >> absolutely. marshall has partnered with auburn university's national center for additive manufacturing excellence to improve the performance of liquid rocket engines, liquid rocket engine serve as the core stage for nasa's space launch system, also managed at marshall. how can we -- how can advancements in additive manufacturing and liquid rocket engine performance be leveraged by nasa to mitigate artemis mission delays? >> we're doing that all the time. all of those new discoveries we improve as we go. that's the whole point of the development of the space program. >> the president's budget requests proposed funding the space operations account below the level required for full operational maintenance of the international space station and

the crew and cargo program, as well as future commercial low earth orbit destinations. what strategies is nasa exploring to ensure operational flexibility within the outlined budget while maintaining its commitment to transitioning from the international space station to commercial low-earth orbit platforms by 2030 and integrating commercial services without interruption? >> are you asking specifically about the end of the international space station? >> yes, sir. >> okay. that's 2031. we want to keep it going for the next six years. why? because look at all the science that's on it. but we want to replace it with commercial stations so that all the science, the training, all the things that we do in low n earth orbit can be done on a

commercial station which statement has a business model that they can make money on a commercial station, bringing business off the face of the earth up to leo. now, we have put some serious incentive money into three commercial companies to build a commercial space station, and that is the intent, by 2031 when we would deorbit the space station that there would be the commercial stations ready to go. >> thank you, mr. administrator. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> yes, sir. gentleman's time has expired. we're down to just a few minutes to go vote, and so if it's okay with you, mr. administrator, we will reconvene as soon as we get through the last vote, okay? >> how many votes do you have, mr. chair?

>> seven. >> oh, my. >> but there are too many votes. is that okay? >> yes, sir. >> if you make two-minute votes, you've done a miracle more than i've ever seen. >> well, we're gonna try. and now i've got to run down there in two minutes too. okay. thank you. >> thanks.